# Bush-Kerry Debate: Part Deux **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302 "2004-10-09T00:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/601 "2004-10-09T03:15:28Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Actually, I realized how that looked after I hit submit :smack: > > What I meant was that I thought Bush did better than he did in the last debate. Too late… your flip flop material now ! :eek: Well doing better than in the last debate isn’t that hard actually. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/602 "2004-10-09T03:16:35Z")
Once again, the SDMB commentary makes the debate more interesting. See you next time. (Gotta get out of debate/politics mode and put some wine on ice for someone who’s coming over who I intend **not** to argue with.) ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/603 "2004-10-09T03:17:05Z")
Finally Bush got to the real point: Kerry can’t possibly halve the budget deficit and institute all these programs without raising taxes on EVERYONE. It’s impossible and should be blatantly obvious to anyone who takes the remotest glance at the numbers. Of course it took Charlie Gibson calling Kerry on it to get Bush to see the light. That’s what bugs me about Kerry. He just can’t do all the things he promises so I have no faith in anything he says. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/604 "2004-10-09T03:19:28Z")
> [@Troy McClure SF](#): > > [http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@DocID=265](http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@DocID=265) > > Ctrl/Command-F for “timber” I’ll be damned, it was true. Thanks, **Troy**. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/605 "2004-10-09T03:19:37Z")
I think overall Kerry won because he did take the fight to Bush on several occasions. He really hammered Bush on the judgement issue, and I think that’s a place where Bush is very vulnerable. He also did a good job on the stem cell question … fully acknowledge the moral concerns of those who oppose it, but made the case for it very strongly afterward. He’s gonna make a great President if the Pubbies don’t steal the election. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/606 "2004-10-09T03:20:36Z")
Judged as a debate outside of the horserace, I’d call it a draw, with maybe a slight edge to Bush for being more animated and not talking down to the audience (Kerry: “Looking around, I believe that only the President, myself, and Charlie Gibson here make over $200K”). But it was very close. However, in terms of how it moves the polls, I think it’ll give Bush a lift, for the simple reason that this performance helped erase the memory of the last disaster. That last debate hurt Bush a lot, because the one thing an incumbent has going for him is that the people feel more comfortable with him and it’s less of a risk to stay with what you know. But when an incumbent bombs in a debate like that, the electorate goes, “WTF? Is that really him?” And the incumbency advantage vanished. I think Bush got it back tonight. And coming off of Cheney’s strong performance Wednesday, it puts Bush back in the driver’s seat. I predict a move in Bush’s direction in the next few days of maybe a point or two. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/607 "2004-10-09T03:20:45Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Finally Bush got to the real point: Kerry can’t possibly halve the budget deficit and institute all these programs without raising taxes on EVERYONE. It’s impossible and should be blatantly obvious to anyone who takes the remotest glance at the numbers. Of course it took Charlie Gibson calling Kerry on it to get Bush to see the light. That’s what bugs me about Kerry. He just can’t do all the things he promises so I have no faith in anything he says. Oh come on, Bush is a HELL of a lot worse. I still can’t get over: -Drugs from Canada are bad because they might come from 3rd world countries. -The whole, “Yeah, there were no WMDs and I’m disappointed about that” -Interupting the moderator ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/608 "2004-10-09T03:21:43Z")
> [@Random](#): > > Again, I agree with you that the main **legal** importance of the decision was cas you say. From a historical point of view, the discussion of the absolute subordination and lack of rights of blacks has more weight. And therefore, you were too dismissive of what **Guin** said. She wasn’t “wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.” You’re right. I was focusing myopically on the legal impact of the case. But the audience was not lawyers, and the historical impact of the case is as you say. My apologies, **Guin**. You were not “wrong, wrong, wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/609 "2004-10-09T03:24:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re right. I was focusing myopically on the legal impact of the case. But the audience was not lawyers, and the historical impact of the case is as you say. > > My apologies, **Guin**. You were not “wrong, wrong, wrong.” Don’t worry about it. I wasn’t entirely sure myself. BTW, when’s the next one? (I really wish “The Daily Show” had been on tonight!) ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/610 "2004-10-09T03:27:37Z")
From the Washington Post’s transcript: Q Mr. President, since we continue to police the world, how do you intend to maintain our military presence without reinstituting a draft? PRESIDENT BUSH: Yeah, great question. Thanks. I hear there’s rumors on the **Internets** that we’re going to have a draft. (My bolding). I heard him say “Internets” and thought…well, THAT explains it all! There’s one internet for us, another for him. Al Gore is going to be really pissed off… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/611 "2004-10-09T03:32:28Z")
I give the debate to Kerry. Bush was indeed A LOT better this time around, but I think Kerry laid down the harder and more credible hits. I wouldn’t say Kerry won by a lot, but the low standards Bush once enjoyed aren’t working for him anymore, and I think undecided voters, especially those who don’t want to vote for Bush but were not completely sold on Kerry yet, are going to feel a lot more comfortable with Kerry as a candidate now. I can’t see how this debate gained any ground for Bush. He went over all the same terrain as before, with nothing new to say at all; Kerry however was able to substantially address much of the persistent doubt about his ideas, his resolve, and his record. Certainly, no one who is not undecided was swayed in the least to change their mind by either candidate. Among undecided voters, however–that last, crucial group–I think Kerry will continue to make some significant gains. I am more and more convinced that Bush’s isolation from news sources, and people who have dissenting opinions, is actually a major handicap for him. Too many of his answers reveal questions about whether he lives in the real world or not. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/612 "2004-10-09T03:33:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re right. I was focusing myopically on the legal impact of the case. But the audience was not lawyers, and the historical impact of the case is as you say. Does that mean I don’t have to do my reading? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/613 "2004-10-09T03:36:05Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Well, as a still-somewhat undecided voter, it is not a very large issue for me either way. I happen to agree with Bush on this one. So, Mister Undecided Voter, how do you feel having seen the whole debate? Any movement to one side or the other? (Undecided voters besides **asterion** are invited to answer as well.) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/614 "2004-10-09T03:37:25Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Finally Bush got to the real point: Kerry can’t possibly halve the budget deficit and institute all these programs without raising taxes on EVERYONE. … That’s what bugs me about Kerry. He just can’t do all the things he promises so I have no faith in anything he says. ``` I agree that Kerry didn't answer well... but neither did Bush.... and only one of them has a huge deficit on his record.Can Bush deliver on his promises ? I understood he said he would halve the deficit too... I sincerely doubt any of them will halve... but you seem to judge Kerry more harshly... I think Bush is a known heavy spender... ``` ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/615 "2004-10-09T03:39:06Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Judged as a debate outside of the horserace, I’d call it a draw, with maybe a slight edge to Bush for being more animated and not talking down to the audience (Kerry: “Looking around, I believe that only the President, myself, and Charlie Gibson here make over $200K”). I don’t understand why that is talking down to someone. I’m guessing that it might be a peculiarly conservative notion that you are talking down to people by guessing that they likely earn less than $200K a year…something that goes along with a philosophy that ties monetary earning to righteousness. 😉 Actually, one of my strongest impressions from the first debate was how Kerry talked to people like they were intelligent whereas Bush was talking to them like they were idiots. That feeling was less strong in this debate though. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/616 "2004-10-09T03:45:35Z")
Oh yeah…I thought Kerry handled the “L” word charge pretty well. The geeky side of me wanted him to specifically debunk the National Journal ranking as we had here on the SDMB but I have to admit that, realistically, it might not have been the best use of his limited time. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/617 "2004-10-09T03:46:12Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Judged as a debate outside of the horserace, I’d call it a draw, with maybe a slight edge to Bush for being more animated and not talking down to the audience (Kerry: “Looking around, I believe that only the President, myself, and Charlie Gibson here make over $200K”). But it was very close. > > I think Bush got it back tonight. And coming off of Cheney’s strong performance Wednesday, it puts Bush back in the driver’s seat. I thought that part about the only 3 people who would “lose” was very well put ! That line was perfect ! Even Bush laughed at it. He created the tension about “who are the 3 he is talking about?” … “3 people in the audience?” I agree with you that it was very close… Bush fucked up sometimes… and Kerry didn’t manage to escape the tax raiser label too well. The high point was the stem cell though… Kerry did so much better… Bush was very lost. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/618 "2004-10-09T03:46:25Z")
I took it to mean taxes aren’t going up on anyone here but us three. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/619 "2004-10-09T03:50:56Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Finally Bush got to the real point: Kerry can’t possibly halve the budget deficit and institute all these programs without raising taxes on EVERYONE. It’s impossible and should be blatantly obvious to anyone who takes the remotest glance at the numbers. Of course it took Charlie Gibson calling Kerry on it to get Bush to see the light. That’s what bugs me about Kerry. He just can’t do all the things he promises so I have no faith in anything he says. But we already know that Bush hasn’t delivered on his promises from 4 years ago and now he’s still promising those things and new ones. Why is he any more credible on promises? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/620 "2004-10-09T04:11:38Z")
One last thought on the Iraq thing: We invaded another country, spent $120 billion so far and probably a few times that by the time it is over, stretched our military personnel to the limit, inflamed much of the world at us, helped terrorist recruitment, took our focus off rebuilding Afghanistan and tracking down Osama et al. all because Saddam was “gaming the system”…And, might have eventually managed to convince other countries to lift sanctions (Can this even be done while we still have a security council veto?), after which he might actually try to rebuild infrastructure to perhaps produce some chemical or biological weapons which he apparently wants in order to defend himself against the Iranians. I really hope there is not too many people who actually think this makes sense! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302.md?page=32)