# Bush-Kerry Debate: Part Deux **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302 "2004-10-09T00:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/661 "2004-10-09T06:54:05Z")
200K per year as a family income isn’t all THAT high. It’s the upper 2%. You don’t have to be a tycoon - A family with a lawyer in it, or a doctor, or two senior professionals. Small business owners. And of the class of people that were in that audience (mostly middle class), the percentage would probably be closer to 5%. There were probably half a dozen people in that audience who made more than 200K. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/662 "2004-10-09T06:55:36Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > Does anyone have problems with Kerry stating that he’s Catholic, considers that life starts at conception, yet supports federally funded abortions and stem-cell research? I do. Kerry wants federally funded abortions? He wants the federal government to pay for abortions? Can I get cite on that? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/663 "2004-10-09T07:00:35Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > Kerry using the “Catholic” card to pander for votes, was insulting at best…and you **Blalron** , know where I stand on the abortion issue. As for the pacifist paying for the military…apples and oranges. I respect him for drawing a distrinction between his **personal beliefs** and what the law of the land should be. Would a Jehovah’s Witness, whose beliefs say that blood transfusions are against Gods Will, have to enforce that belief on others when he is in public office? Would he have to veto any public funding for blood transfusions in order to have any integrity? Or is it possible that he can make a distinction between his faith and his government? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/664 "2004-10-09T09:01:02Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > I think Kerry alienated a couple hundred Missourians (sp?) when he made the comment that only 3 people in the room (him, Bush and the mod) will be the only ones paying higher taxes, inferring that they are the ONLY ones there making more than $200K, as if everyone else was trailer trash. “Elitest” comes to mind. And alienating 1 or 2 percent of the population is going to hurt him how? Bush probably already has the obscenely rich vote sewed up; I think it’s pretty smart of Kerry to reach out to the middle class. Like me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/665 "2004-10-09T09:05:50Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Kerry wants federally funded abortions? He wants the federal government to pay for abortions? Can I get cite on that? To be precise, he refused to say he’s _against_ it, which is really a distinction without a difference. I don’t have a written cite, but it was in response to a direct question posed in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/666 "2004-10-09T09:08:01Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I respect him for drawing a distrinction between his **personal beliefs** and what the law of the land should be. Yeah - he even mentioned atheists and agnostics. Woo hoo! I’m liking this guy more and more. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/667 "2004-10-09T09:19:50Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Am I the only one who thinks Bush alienated a fair numberof undecided voters tonight? The guy was a classic example of barely-contained anger management; I _don’t_ think undecided voters are out there going, “Yeah! I want a borderline psycho with his finger on the button!” 😕 > And I will readily admit that Bush did better tonight than he did last week. But then, considering how badly he cratered last week, the only way he could have done worse tonight was to not show up. 😉 The NBC affiliate in Reno had a panel of voters watching the debate, and the undecided voters were swung significantly toward Kerry. Not a scientific measure or a statistically significant poll by any means, but it’s still encouraging. And this from much earlier in the debate (I know it’s a little late, but why not): > [@fruitbat](#): > > He jumped right on the offroad diesel engines bit. Does that mean he regulated ATVs. Man your record can’t be good when that is the first thing you have to cite. Off-road diesel fuel is used in mainly in construction and farm equipment. The fuel is higher in sulfur and other contaminants than overh the road fuel, and isn’t subject to the same highway taxes that over the road fuel is. I think diesel engines designed in equipment that uses off-road fuel are subject to different emissions standards, but I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/668 "2004-10-09T10:21:24Z")
I’m with the majority here and with what a lot of the pundits are saying. Kerry won. Bush was wobbly but less than in D1. Kerry could have been a little sharper and more aggressive. All in all, I doubt that Bush, who does not overall seem presidential, barely sane for that matter, is going to convince any undecideds with this kind of schtick. Kerry, on the other hand, can turn a few with this kind of performance. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/669 "2004-10-09T10:33:50Z")
Since this is in actuality a sort of combination Pit thread and IMHO Poll, I’ll just state my opinion: Bush did much better this time, and he did better than Kerry. Most memorable line of the evening? Bush: “I own a lumber business? That’s news to me.” ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/670 "2004-10-09T11:24:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Since this is in actuality a sort of combination Pit thread and IMHO Poll, I’ll just state my opinion: Bush did much better this time, and he did better than Kerry. Most memorable line of the evening? Bush: “I own a lumber business? That’s news to me.” That did kinda crack me up. “Want some wood?” But someone posted the cite about what Kerry was talking about. Bush doesn’t _own_ a lumber company, but he did make that $84 off a lumber company at one point and it was pointed out that that could have entitled him to whatever small business tax break he was talking about. Not that actually took advantage of it as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/671 "2004-10-09T11:29:03Z")
I liked where Kerry told Bush that he did something bush never has, balanced the budget. I think in some ways Bush did better. He was more animated, played to the audience a bit better, and had a better grasp of the issues than he did before. In some ways he did much worse. The interruption about the coalition was pretty bad, and Kerry made it worse by pointing out that eight of them have dropped out including Poland I believe. When Bush challenged Kerry on his record and he made the balanced budget remark. Lastly Bush calling out Kerry on the body armor vote and Kerry explaining it. I don’t think Kerry has dominated the debates, but he really hasn’t had to. Bush is making to many errors in tone. The poll numbers reflect that. He has been less “presidential” than Kerry. I read somewhere that in the Kennedy/Nixon debate, nobody remembers the issues but everyone remembers how much Nixon sweated. Bush needs to get his shizzle together for the next debate before he loses too much ground. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/672 "2004-10-09T12:46:30Z")
This was entertaining. I even left the Yankee game for this. I was reminded of the first Gore debate where “the sigh” was the story. His handlers made him over compensate and the story was how did Gore look and behave in the second debate. Now Bush’s handlers have him overcompensate too. Instead of looking like he was on a lithium drip, they seem to have injected the testosterone of twenty bulls. He seemed to shout and in my opinion was quite rude to the moderator and trampled all over the rules. He still seems to be in denial over the news of the week- the report on WMD and the jobs report. In his closing statement, I was watching the people behind him. They were nearly all scowling at Bush and looking with great contempt. Kerry seemed much more in control of his emotions and for the most part acted presidential rather than senatorial. I thought he needed to explain that the timber company quote was not pulled out of his tush. Pro-choicers may have been left unsatisfied with his answer on abortion, but where else are they going to go? The most astute comment I heard was from Jeff Greenfield. Bush played to his base, Kerry to the middle. And I think that’s true. Bush gives the standard right wing answers in stark black and white. Kerry admits to the shades of gray and is less offensive to those that disagree with him about an issue. With Bush, it’s agree with me or you’re in bed with Satan. With Kerry, it’s if you don’t agree with me I respect that but here’s my reasoning. So I think Bush is cutting off the middle, Kerry is embracing the middle. I’m looking for a minor Kerry bounce on this debate. Less so than the first, but also less needed than the first. Bush is looking frustrated and desperate. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/673 "2004-10-09T13:42:51Z")
Do Kerry and Bush live in the same world? Really-- they’re just so very far apart on so many issues that it’s tough to believe they’re both looking at the same set of data. It did make for a strong, interesting debate to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/674 "2004-10-09T13:47:22Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Do Kerry and Bush live in the same world? Really-- they’re just so very far apart on so many issues that it’s tough to believe they’re both looking at the same set of data. This is what makes the very existence of such a creature as the “undecided voter” almost unfathomable. To be undecided, it would be necessary for you to have none of your own opinions about much of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/675 "2004-10-09T13:59:11Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > To be precise, he refused to say he’s _against_ it, which is really a distinction without a difference. I don’t have a written cite, but it was in response to a direct question posed in the debate. He did? I heard him make a very strong point that it would not be fair, given that abortion is a legal right, to have it be the exclusive province of the wealthy, so that he would allow federal funds to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/676 "2004-10-09T14:49:46Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Since this is in actuality a sort of combination Pit thread and IMHO Poll, I’ll just state my opinion: Bush did much better this time, and he did better than Kerry. Most memorable line of the evening? Bush: “I own a lumber business? That’s news to me.” It happens to be true. maybe Bush is unaware of it but he does have part ownership of a timber growing company and he does qualify himself as a small business. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/677 "2004-10-09T14:58:13Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > No. > IOW, he’s actually going to respect the fact that not everybody in this country shares his religious views. I know, it’s wacky. But it’s so crazy, that it just might work! What a novel idea, someone who respects other opinions and beliefs, even if he doesn’t share them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/678 "2004-10-09T14:59:15Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > I think Kerry alienated a couple hundred Missourians (sp?) when he made the comment that only 3 people in the room (him, Bush and the mod) will be the only ones paying higher taxes, inferring that they are the ONLY ones there making more than $200K, as if everyone else was trailer trash. “Elitest” comes to mind. You’re grasping at straws. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/679 "2004-10-09T15:00:05Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > Kerry using the “Catholic” card to pander for votes, was insulting at best…and you **Blalron** , know where I stand on the abortion issue. As for the pacifist paying for the military…apples and oranges. Bush has used the “christian” card for the past four years. How is that any different? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302/680 "2004-10-09T15:05:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Bush played to his base, Kerry to the middle. And I think that’s true. Bush gives the standard right wing answers in stark black and white. Kerry admits to the shades of gray and is less offensive to those that disagree with him about an issue. With Bush, it’s agree with me or you’re in bed with Satan. With Kerry, it’s if you don’t agree with me I respect that but here’s my reasoning. So I think Bush is cutting off the middle, Kerry is embracing the middle. Bush by playing to his base, and taking the “either you’re with me or against me” tone is hurting himself. His base is already convinced; he needs to convince the middle. Kerry is going after the middle. Both bases are still pretty even, it is the middle that will decide the election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-part-deux/268302.md?page=35)