# Bush-Kerry Debate: Watch Along Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963 "2004-10-01T00:58:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/421 "2004-10-01T12:53:21Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > S > Kerry kept yakking abouit how he would “enlist the allies” to “help in Iraq”. Well, since the French and Germans (who are the ostensible “allies” he refers to, have NO interest in sending troops to iraq, just what was he referring to? Mongolia and Micronisia? Well, that is not true. Those countries do have an interest in Iraq not turning into a fucking disaster. Admittedly, it may not be easy to convince them to put troops in giving how we ignored their advice, now known to be correct, in the first place. But Kerry at least has a chance of being able to do it since he wasn’t responsible for that policy. > [@](#): > > All in all, I would say that Bush gave more honest answers…Kerry can’t tell us why he keeeps contradicting himseld. Here come the RNC talking points again. Even Bush supporters (e.g., **Starving Artist** in a Pit Thread on the debates) have noted that Bush for the most part ignored bringing up specific examples of these supposed contradictions. My guess is that the reason is that Kerry would have pretty much clobbered him on them. Best for Bush to keep it as a vague general claim that can’t really be rebutted because it isn’t specific enough to rebut. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/422 "2004-10-01T12:58:35Z")
Actually, in regards to the flip-flop issue, I thought Kerry did an excellent job here (from the N.Y. Times transcript): > [@](#): > > And it wasn’t until former Secretary of State Jim Baker and General Scowcroft and others pushed publicly and said, you’ve got to go to the U.N., that the president finally changed his mind - **his campaign has a word for that** - and went to the United Nations. (emphasis mine) He also could have mentioned when Bush went back to the U.N. Security Council in February / March to authorize the invasion and pledged that there would be a vote…And then decided to not actually have the vote when it became clear that they didn’t even nearly have the votes. I think that reversal of position happened over a period of less than 1 week. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/423 "2004-10-01T13:40:10Z")
> [@Salem](#): > > Well it _is_ hard work getting the braver than the bravest of braves to love the widows of the worthy without flip-flopping and sending mexed missages so that freedom from the attacking Iraqi can reign with the help of the Big 4 Coalition, including Poland, in this post-September 10 world. Hard work, indeed. So much hard work requires a lot of vacation time, I guess. > [@Jenaroph](#): > > And orange. I thought it was my TV at first. It wasn’t until I saw the split screen that it became clear. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/424 "2004-10-01T13:47:17Z")
I predicted in another thread that Kerry would outshine Bush and reassure undecided voters. Kerry is a decent, kind man and he’s a very smart man, and that’s what came through. Whether they’re up on all the issues or not, I think most people have an excellent character radar and that’s where Kerry has an advantage. Studies have shown that people rate the “winner” of a debate the same with the sound on or off. We’ve been following Kerry closely since last spring, and have seen him speak in a variety of venues, in person, on many occasions. My Hubby was his driver on one occasion last fall. Kerry’s convention speech was weak, but he doesn’t give his best speeches in vast, cavernous venues. He’s much more effective in small groups and one-to-one. I’ve never bought this “aloof” label, because I’ve seen him be quite personable, and grow more Presidential over time. Watch for Bush to look really stupid in the next debate. He wasn’t a total boob last night, but once he’s behind and seeking an advantage his bullying, petulant personality will appear. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/425 "2004-10-01T14:01:46Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Since when does an American President go before the country and call the President of Russia by his first name? Repeatedly. It’s an improvement from [“Pooty-poot”](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2000197.stm), isn’t it? I was expecting Kerry to wonder how Bush could have soured so much on Putin (is that spelled “Poutine” in French?) after his earlier pronouncement: “I looked the man in the eye. I was able to get a sense of his soul.” Kerry by points. He could have used a few pithier soundbites, but got the job done. With so little time between debates, no pro-Bush spin, however frantic, can reverse that and harden in the undecideds’ minds in time. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/426 "2004-10-01T14:20:27Z")
I suspect Bush calls him Vladimir because he’s afraid he might giggle and/or mispronounce Putin. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/427 "2004-10-01T14:32:35Z")
> [@shelbo](#): > > I thought Kerry could use Abu Ghraib as a response to the ICC issue: “Yea, the ICC might have a problem with murder, rape and torture by American soldiers, so I can see why you’d rather have your justice department oversee the actions of our troops.” That would in poor taste and a disgusting comment. It is a _touchy_ subject which is why it was left alone. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/428 "2004-10-01T14:39:23Z")
I think if the debate had ended 20mins in, Bush would have won it. He looked solid at the start. He just couldnt hang with Kerry once his talking points gave out. Did anyone see the Daily Show afterwards? Did anyone else think Rudolph G. came across like an idiot? He kept harping on Kerry’s inconsistent message when it was obvious to everyone that Kerry that during the debate Kerry plainly stated his position. I thought it was sad…I understand you have to stick with your party and all, but wow, it was just sad. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/429 "2004-10-01T14:40:29Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > That would in poor taste and a disgusting comment. It is a _touchy_ subject which is why it was left alone. It would also be the wrong approach. You don’t blame the troops. You blame the leaders who set the whole thing up, in particular, Donald Rumsfeld. This is the obvious approach to take. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/430 "2004-10-01T15:01:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > (is that spelled “Poutine” in French?) Yes, here is the French-language [Wikipedia](http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Poutine) entry on Vlad, and [here](http://www.the-misc.com/comics/filibuster/poutine.jpg) is what a poutine looks like 😛 ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/431 "2004-10-01T15:10:10Z")
When the Fox Snooze website is running articles saying that polls showed Kerry won the debate you just know last night was a disaster for Bush. I must say that, as strong a Kerry man as I am and as much as I despise Junior I was amazed at how good Big John was and how puny, testy and pathetic the Preznit seemed. But, though the extremity might be a surprise, the overall results makes perfect sense. Bush has always been a fake. This macho Texan cheerleader from Andover who became a populist millionaire by extorting a baseball stadium from Arlington taxpapers, was a man who showed his support for the war in Vietnam by running out on his military service. He insists war was a last resort but he pulled the weapons inspectors out in order to have it at the very time when Saddam was caving into our demands. We are now seeing the real man, such as he is, and, Land o’ Goshen, it’s not a pretty sight. Still, Kerry missed a couple of potential knock-out punches. 1. When Bush hit him with his vote against the $87 billion dollar Kerry blew the chance to remind Bush that it wasn’t about whether the troops should get it — that was never in doubt — but how to fund it. While it’s true that Kerry did vote against one version of the bill and supported another Bush threatened to veto the version he didn’t like — and a presidential veto carries a lot more wallop than one lousy vote in the Senate, especially when you know the bill’s going to pass anyway. 2. The President, showing his usual poor grasp of reality, kept insisting that Saddam needed to be disarmed. Kerry should have pointed out that if there’s one thing this was has proven it’s that Saddam WAS disarmed. Therefore, the president was talking like either a liar or an idiot. Of course, Big John would have had to be a bit more diplomatic about things than yours truly but the point could have a killer. Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/432 "2004-10-01T15:44:00Z")
> [@braintree](#): > > When the Fox Snooze website is running articles saying that polls showed Kerry won the debate you just know last night was a disaster for Bush. When you base a conclusion on a faulty premise (ie, Fox will rarely, if ever, report negative news about Bush), there is no reason to accept your conclusion as being valid. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/433 "2004-10-01T15:47:22Z")
Another of your strawmen, \*\*John \*\* - the only premise implied is that Fox is \*biased \* toward Bush. If you’d like to deny _that_, you may feel free - but lonely. Thanks, **detop** - the resemblance is remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/434 "2004-10-01T16:08:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Another of your strawmen, \*\*John \*\* - the only premise implied is that Fox is \*biased \* toward Bush. If you’d like to deny _that_, you may feel free - but lonely. > > Thanks, **detop** - the resemblance is remarkable. Thank you, Elvis. Republicans: It’s what’s for dinner. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/435 "2004-10-01T16:17:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Another of your strawmen, \*\*John \*\* - the only premise implied is that Fox is \*biased \* toward Bush. If you’d like to deny _that_, you may feel free - but lonely. I’m not going to get in a debate about whether Fox News (as opposed to any given Fox commentator) is biased towards Bush. It’s not a provable or falsifiable assertion. However, even if one claims that “Fox is biased towards Bush”, the conclusion drawn above does not follow. Sorry, you simply cannot deduce the margin of victory for Kerry by the simple fact that Fox is reporting a victory. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/436 "2004-10-01T16:23:06Z")
> [@braintree](#): > > 1. The President, showing his usual poor grasp of reality, kept insisting that Saddam needed to be disarmed. Kerry should have pointed out that if there’s one thing this was has proven it’s that Saddam WAS disarmed. Yeah…I was bothered by this too. If the President wants to make any case here, he has to explain exactly in what ways he felt Saddam was being uncooperative and unforthcoming. I mean, I know Saddam wasn’t being perfectly 100% candid. There were things that the inspectors were asking for clarification on and more information about…But, the fact is that in retrospect we know (almost for sure) that he was telling the truth on the basic point of not having any WMD or active programs to make WMD. What the President can’t really get around is the fact that he went to war on the basis of claims about Saddam’s not being forthcoming that were mainly based on his believing that Saddam had weapons that he in fact didn’t have. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/437 "2004-10-01T16:23:56Z")
More of a telegenic contest if you ask me – amazing to see many commentators call it one of the most “substantial Presidential debates” in memory. Please, if repeating talking points and platitudes is “substance,” Mahatma Gandhi had nothing on me. Then again, I suppose the whole thing needs to be placed in perspective when thinking of the voters the candidates were trying to reach – clueless gits that still think SH had something to do with 9/11 and that somehow, Iraq is tied-in with the ‘War on Terra.’ In that sense, it felt like watching first graders learning their ABC’s from teachers with different alphabets. Pathetic to think that there’s a large segment of the adult population that still needs those primers – but as continued polls show, plenty of them around. From that perspective, edge Kerry – not because he was particularly insightful, but because he can simply string a few coherent sentences together better than The Doofus In Charge. Color me surprised. Going by after-debate polls and spin, it appears that’s the general consensus as well. That simply by virtue of not fumbling and looking ‘more Presidential’ than Dumbya, Kerry scored enough points to stay in the race and win this round. A slight gain of momentum seems likely. But for fuck’s sake! color me elitist and dip me in chocolate if you’d like, I came away with the distinct impression that if those two are the best America has to offer as paragons of leadership, we are _all_ in trouble. Obviously, because it’s _already known_ that Bush is a complete moron, Kerry still gets the benefit of the doubt and the ensuing hopeful nod from most rational thinking people world-wide. Hopefully there are enough of those still left Stateside to take him to victory – if only because the alternative is too harrowing to contemplate. But still, some of this talk about “Kerry finally took his gloves off” and “nailed the pResident on the Iraq War” only makes the slightest bit of sense within the context provided, i.e., he was talking to first graders. Granted, in Bush’s case that’s true, but in the larger context, again, what does that say of the American public at large. Ugh! Just a bitty example of what I am talking about: when asked about ‘Bush lying about going to war,’ Kerry first softened the question by pointing out that he “never said it in those words” (granted, politically expedient to do so, but gutless anyway) and then barely _skimmed_ the surface of the multitude of evidence that is out there. Uranium from Niger, aluminum tubes, student thesis, the infamous drones of death, Plame outing, the OSP intel sham run by Rummie and cohorts, Chalabi, the _current and dire situation_ in Iraq, etc. etc. Baah! if there was ever a topic – and an incumbent – that was ready for a KO, it has to be Bush. Of course, Kerry’s own initial, albeit clearly nuanced, approval of this madcap adventure ultimately hampered his attack. Would that the “new and improved” Al Gore could have been unleashed on Dubya last night. Now, _that_, I would have payed to watch. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/438 "2004-10-01T17:12:02Z")
I have a question about why people didn’t seem to like Kerry’s mentioning of a “global test”, referring to pre-emptive wars. What’s the problem? When he made that statement, in its context, it makes perfect sense: > [@](#): > > **John Kerry** said: > _But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you’re doing what you’re doing and **you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons**._ (_bolding mine_) Personally, when Bush said: > [@](#): > > **George W. Bush** said: > _Let me – I’m not exactly sure what you mean, “passes the global test,” you take preemptive action if you pass a global test._ I immediately thought, “If you don’t know what he meant by this ‘global test’, then you should not have the ability to engage in a pre-emptive strike.” So… what was the problem with Kerry’s statement, and why was Bush’s rebuttal considered a good “counterstrike”? LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/439 "2004-10-01T17:19:40Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > So… what was the problem with Kerry’s statement, and why was Bush’s rebuttal considered a good “counterstrike”? For one thing, Kerry’s tone just faltered here somewhat, like he was hesitating over whether he was phrasing it the best way. And he wasn’t, if you think about it- the Pubs are hammering him about putting other countries’ wishes before ours, leaving the security of America up to foreign leaders, etc. This kind of phrase just sticks out with the “America First” crowd, and Kerry’s been trying to convince people that he _will_ put America first. So when Bush came back with, “Global test? I think it’s about protecting America,” that surely resonated with folks. The ones who are worried over whether Kerry has the stones to protect them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/440 "2004-10-01T17:26:35Z")
The correct answer is: “No, I will not require a global test in order to protect the US. But I \*\*WILL \*\*require a global test to validate military actions, like the Iraq war, that are not necessary for the protection of the US.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963.md?page=23)