# Bush-Kerry Debate: Watch Along Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963 "2004-10-01T00:58:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/441 "2004-10-01T17:37:07Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > This kind of phrase just sticks out with the “America First” crowd, and Kerry’s been trying to convince people that he will put America first. > > So when Bush came back with, “Global test? I think it’s about protecting America,” that surely resonated with folks. I guess I can see how people can get that… but I really have to _try_ to come to that conclusion. Especially since the statement went like this: > [@](#): > > \…you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test **where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you’re doing what you’re doing** and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons. (emphasis mine… again) > [@John Mace](#): > > The correct answer is: > > “No, I will not require a global test in order to protect the US. But I WILL require a global test to validate military actions, like the Iraq war, that are not necessary for the protection of the US.” I see the _semantic_ difference between the two statements, but to take them mutually exclusively would imply that Kerry might “ask for permission to defend the U.S.”. This distinction shouldn’t _have_ to be made (i.e. people should use common sense), but since Bush et al. “pointed it out” I guess it does. :rolleyes: In any case, thanks for the clarifications, **Moody Bastard** and **John Mace**. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/442 "2004-10-01T17:44:18Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > I guess I can see how people can get that… but I really have to _try_ to come to that conclusion. Me too. I was trying to view Kerry’s answers last night through the eyes of an undecided voter, even a (_shudder_) Republican. It wasn’t a mind transference I hope to repeat in the immediate future. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/443 "2004-10-01T17:47:29Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > In any case, thanks for the clarifications, **Moody Bastard** and **John Mace**. > > LilShieste Kerry is in a tough spot, and I don’t envy him having to articulate a postition that is so easily made to look “weak” by either Bush or the press. If he said anything like my quote above, he could pretty much give up on his candidacy, even though I think it pretty much summarizes his views. Kerry has to claim that the Iraq war was “not a mistake” while still claiming that Bush made a mistake in going to war. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/444 "2004-10-01T17:52:46Z")
That’s not Kerry’s position at all. He clearly said that the invasion of Iraq _was_ a mistake (and no, Kerry did NOT vote to invade Iraq) , but now that Bush has already fucked it up we have to make lemonade out of lemons. Kerry is we can still salvage this trainwreck and make it “successful” in that sense but that doesn’t mean the initial invasion was not a major fuck up, both in conceptiona nd execution. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/445 "2004-10-01T17:57:19Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s not Kerry’s position at all. He clearly said that the invasion of Iraq _was_ a mistake… He did? [Not in the debate last night.](http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html) > [@](#): > > LEHRER: All right, new question. Two minutes, Senator Kerry. > > Speaking of Vietnam, you spoke to Congress in 1971, after you came back from Vietnam, and you said, quote, “How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?” > > Are Americans now dying in Iraq for a mistake? > > KERRY: No… And I purposely didn’t copy any more of the quote as it doesn’t matter what he follows “no” with. But feel free to add more if you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/446 "2004-10-01T17:57:24Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > Me too. I was trying to view Kerry’s answers last night through the eyes of an undecided voter, even a (shudder) Republican. > It wasn’t a mind transference I hope to repeat in the immediate future. Scary. 😛 (I just had a mental image of last night’s Daily Show, where all of the undecideds were playing musical chairs… heh) LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/447 "2004-10-01T18:04:11Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Several points: > Kerry’s fake orange tan: why did they remove it? And, did he get extra botox injections? > Kerry kept yakking abouit how he would “enlist the allies” to “help in Iraq”. Well, since the French and Germans (who are the ostensible “allies” he refers to, have NO interest in sending troops to iraq, They have no interest because they HATE BUSH. That’s why we need a new president; Bush already burned his bridges. > [@](#): > > just what was he referring to? Mongolia and Micronisia? Yeah, everyone _knows_ POLAND is our most important ally.😃 > [@](#): > > The podium heihghts: the camera kept panning, trying to show us how much taller Kerry is than Bush…why does this matter? Oh yeah, the liberal media bias. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > All in all, I would say that Bush gave more honest answers… Of course you would. > [@](#): > > Kerry can’t tell us why he keeeps contradicting himseld. But at least that awful spray-on tan is gone! Yes, let’s make Kerry’s tan the central issue of the presidential race. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/448 "2004-10-01T18:10:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > And I purposely didn’t copy any more of the quote as it doesn’t matter what he follows “no” with. But feel free to add more if you think it does. Please. You’re not only quoting out of context, but \*defending \* the practice? The hell it doesn’t matter. The simplistic, unnuanced, “no” you wish Kerry’d answered with would imply that nothing can be salvaged, nothing useful can be done, it’s time to bail out. But you know damn well, or should by now, that that is not only unrealistic but is not Kerry’s position. You do know that, don’t you? He made it very clear to those of us who listened that there is still some possible good that can come out of the situation we are, in fact, in. There is some way still possible to make a softer landing than Bush’s approach is lemmingishly headed for. It at the very least is possible to get fewer people, both Iraqis and Americans, killed than Bush is. It is not a mistake to change the approach; it is a mistake not recognize that this one is doomed. Yes, it’s a tough spot for Kerry to be in, but not as tough as the one Bush is in. But then you’d have to have listened. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/449 "2004-10-01T18:10:44Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > They have no interest because they HATE BUSH. That’s why we need a new president; Bush already burned his bridges. This is something I would like to emphasize, with **blowero**. The way Bush handled the whole Iraq situation was the political equivalent of flipping France, Germany, etc. the bird (and subsequently mooning them). I find it infinitely amusing that Bush tries to show so much concern for our allies, when he didn’t have a care in the world about our _former_ allies. > [@](#): > > Yes, let’s make Kerry’s tan the central issue of the presidential race. Well, the “Lurch issue” didn’t last as long as they expected, so… something has to fill the void. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/450 "2004-10-01T18:11:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > He did? [Not in the debate last night.](http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html) > > And I purposely didn’t copy any more of the quote as it doesn’t matter what he follows “no” with. But feel free to add more if you think it does. Did you miss the part when Kerry said (verbatim) “The president made a mistake in invading Iraq?” You have to make a distinction between whether the decision to invade was a mistake and whether anything worthwhile can be salvaged from it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/451 "2004-10-01T18:14:07Z")
And of course it matters what he follows “no” with. You can’t just mine quotes for words that suit your purpose and expect to be convincing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/452 "2004-10-01T18:16:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Please. You’re not only quoting out of context, but \*defending \* the practice? > > The hell it doesn’t matter. The simplistic, unnuanced, “no” you wish Kerry’d answered with would imply that nothing can be salvaged, nothing useful can be done, it’s time to bail out. But you know damn well, or should by now, that that is not only unrealistic but is not Kerry’s position. You do know that, don’t you? We’re having a detailed discussion of this topic in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=278628). I’m not going to repeat myself over here, but feel free to join the debate over there if you want. 'It’s time to bail out" does not necessarily follow from the assertion that the war was a mistake. It’s pretty clear that pulling out would, in fact, compound the mistake. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/453 "2004-10-01T18:17:32Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > They have no interest because they HATE BUSH. That’s why we need a new president; Bush already burned his bridges. Pardon me if this seems to literal. But what interest would Germany, France or Russia suddenly have in Iraq if Kerry were president? Are you saying he woudl distribute spoils of war? Are you saying that he would pay them something? What pray tell. I understand the argument that Kerry represents a fresh start in international politics. Frankly I think this is somewhat simplistic. Nations enter into alliances and agreements for their national interests. Personal relationships play a part, surely. But they are not all important. The fact that Bush is president does not in and of itself mean that France, Germany, nor Russia have an interest in a peaceful resolution to the Iraq war. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/454 "2004-10-01T18:20:29Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And of course it matters what he follows “no” with. You can’t just mine quotes for words that suit your purpose and expect to be convincing. Then show me where in that answer he clearly said the invasion was a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/455 "2004-10-01T18:22:56Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > It would also be the wrong approach. You don’t blame the troops. You blame the leaders who set the whole thing up, in particular, Donald Rumsfeld. This is the obvious approach to take. Once again, I have to do the writing for Kerry…I’d insert this anywhere, regardless of the context: “In a Kerry administration, any cabinet member who oversees a scandal as outrageous as Abu Ghraib won’t get a pat on the back from me…he’ll get a kick in the ass.” ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/456 "2004-10-01T18:25:14Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Pardon me if this seems to literal. But what interest would Germany, France or Russia suddenly have in Iraq if Kerry were president? Are you saying he woudl distribute spoils of war? Are you saying that he would pay them something? What pray tell. > > I understand the argument that Kerry represents a fresh start in international politics. Frankly I think this is somewhat simplistic. Nations enter into alliances and agreements for their national interests. Personal relationships play a part, surely. But they are not all important. The fact that Bush is president does not in and of itself mean that France, Germany, nor Russia have an interest in a peaceful resolution to the Iraq war. I don’t think you understand “the argument that Kerry represents a fresh start”, as well as you say you do… otherwise you wouldn’t have asked the 3 questions above. Saying that Kerry represents a fresh start in international politics, and leaving it at that _is_ simplistic, but it’s true. It follows (that is, the simplicity subsides when you see) that having a fresh start in international politics will make a WORLD of difference (man, that was a bad pun… sorry), because the leaders of France, Germany (and yes, other countries… we know they aren’t the only ones Bush pissed on/off) will actually believe _their opinions matter to us_! As it is right now, they’re probably under the impression, “No matter what we say or do, [Bush/U.S.] is not going to listen to us.” That, alone, makes the “relationship-mending” much more difficult, if not impossible. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/457 "2004-10-01T18:26:25Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > “In a Kerry administration, any cabinet member who oversees a scandal as outrageous as Abu Ghraib won’t get a pat on the back from me…he’ll get a kick in the ass.” That is beautiful. 😃 LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/458 "2004-10-01T18:35:28Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > He did? [Not in the debate last night.](http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html)And I purposely didn’t copy any more of the quote as it doesn’t matter what he follows “no” with. But feel free to add more if you think it does. What Kerry said was that confronting Saddam Hussein and holding him accountable was important but that the way the President went about it was boneheaded. He specficially criticized the president for rushing to war. > [@John Kerry last night](#): > > He also promised America that he would go to war as a last resort. > > Those words mean something to me, as somebody who has been in combat. “Last resort.” You’ve got to be able to look in the eyes of families and say to those parents, “I tried to do everything in my power to prevent the loss of your son and daughter.” > > I don’t believe the United States did that. So you see, John, even if does come after his “no” it’s still an important part of the story. I mean he does sound like he’s criticizing the president for making a mistake in how he invaded Iraq, right? Kerry has a problem in that he can’t come right out and say that it’s a mistake because if he does then he could be legitimately criticized for demoralizing the troops while they’re getting their asses shot. At the same time he has to deal with the unappetizing reality that Bush really screwed the pooch on this one. To be blunt, Kerry’s speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Sometimes you have to do that. People may not like it but even Lincoln pulled crap like that. It’s called being a politician. There is, however, a significant difference between acting like a politician doing what’s necessary to get the essential truth accross without getting punished for excessive accuracy and the sort of chronic misrepresentation where one appears to be living in a fantasy world like ol’ Smirky McChimp. By the way, John, let me ask you this: if polls showed that Kerry lost the debate or merely tied with Bush do you honestly think there’s the slightest possiblitiy that Fox would say he won? Please say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/459 "2004-10-01T18:38:10Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Then show me where in that answer he clearly said the invasion was a mistake. He didn’t say it in that quote, he said it elsewhere in the debate. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963/460 "2004-10-01T18:38:56Z")
**DtC** : This is how I understand what Kerry is saying: the invasion WILL HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE if we don’t win the war and if Iraq therefore descends into chaos. His assertion is that Bush will lose the war and that he, Kerry, will win it. That may well be true-- we don’t really have a way of knowing either way right now. That’s still very different than saying the invasion WAS a mistake. Frankly, I think the invasion was a mistake, and I think Kerry thinks so, too. But I understand that it is political suicide for him to say that. I don’t blame him for framing the bebate as he has. It’s probably the best way to deal with a very dfficult situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-kerry-debate-watch-along-thread/266963.md?page=24)