# Bush Lied, and now we have proof. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236 "2007-11-20T21:33:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/61 "2007-11-21T10:58:36Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Exactly. And we don’t know that Bush did that, either. There’s a reasonable (though far from airtight) case to be made against Cheney, but no evidence that I’m aware of that Bush was involved in outing Plame. Even this story is about the cover-up after the outing, not the outing itself. [/QUOTE] I have to agree that the idea of outing Plame was a thousand times more likely to be the fruit of Cheney’s demented mind than Bush’s. But as Nixon can attest, covering up can be far worse than the original sin. It is stunning that a former press secretary would make such an accusation and with the level of that position we need to take it seriously. I think there is reasonable cause to appoint a special prosecutor to pick up this trail and follow it wherever it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/62 "2007-11-21T12:54:37Z")
What accusation? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/63 "2007-11-21T13:30:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t really have a bun in this oven, but didn’t someone named Armitage admit to Investigator Fitzgerald, a few days into his investigation that he was the one who had inadvertantly “outed” Valerie Plame. Armitage was one of several people who leaked Ms. Plame’s CIA status to the press. They also included, at a minimum, Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, and Ari Fleischer. The right wing noise machine has tried to portray Armitage’s involvement as the end of the story, exonerating the White House, but it couldn’t be further from the truth. McClellan’s revelation isn’t news to anyone who has been willing and able to follow the story to its logical conclusions; the question isn’t whether Bush lied about it, but just how soon and how brazenly. What did he know and when did he know it, as they say. It is interesting to hear this from a formerly loyal Bushie, though one wonders why he didn’t say something back when we could have fucking done something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/64 "2007-11-21T13:33:28Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJ] McClellan’s revelation isn’t news… [/QUOTE] Seriously…are you trying to make **Princhester’s** head explode? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/65 "2007-11-21T13:34:23Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJ] It is interesting to hear this from a formerly loyal Bushie, though one wonders why he didn’t say something back when we could have fucking done something about it. [/QUOTE] What could he have done, wrestled Cheney to the ground? ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/66 "2007-11-21T13:52:21Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] What could he have done, wrestled Cheney to the ground? [/QUOTE] Come to think of it, hmmmmmmm, maybe that’s what _really_ happened That Day The Gun Went Off And Someone Said Ouch. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/67 "2007-11-21T14:01:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Seriously…are you trying to make Princhester’s head explode? I wouldn’t say trying, exactly… 🙂 > [@](#): > > What could he have done, wrestled Cheney to the ground? There was a criminal trial that he might have had something else to offer. For that matter, there has been an election since the deception in question took place, though in fairness to McClellan we don’t know when exactly he knew what a patsy he was. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/68 "2007-11-21T14:07:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Mainly because outing a CIA agent to the press isn’t treason. Secretly handing a list of CIA agents over to ObL would be treason. Big difference. I agree, but not everyone considered it as open and shut as that. Ari Fleischer took a deal for immunity because he was concerned that his actions constituted treason and that it might mean the death penalty. (Fitzgerald made a great play with this–the defense wanted to bring Fleischer’s immunity deal into evidence, and Fitzgerald said that was fine, as long as he could bring in why Fleischer made it.) It seems silly in retrospect, but it was apparently a real enough fear at the time, and I assume he had the advice of counsel on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/69 "2007-11-21T14:14:20Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJ] There was a criminal trial that he might have had something else to offer. For that matter, there has been an election since the deception in question took place, though in fairness to McClellan we don’t know when exactly he knew what a patsy he was. [/QUOTE] Well, we have a new Congress now. Maybe they’ll deal with it after their Thanksgiving recess and before their Christmas vacation, what with summer vacation being over and all. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/70 "2007-11-21T15:12:04Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJ] For that matter, there has been an election since the deception in question took place, though in fairness to McClellan we don’t know when exactly he knew what a patsy he was. [/QUOTE] Well, Nixon was re-elected after Watergate occured, and look how that turned out for him. Bush apologists are fond of hand waving and saying “let’s not jump to conclusions, we must wait until all the facts are in.” That time has arrived. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/71 "2007-11-21T15:35:43Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Well, Nixon was re-elected after Watergate occured, and look how that turned out for him. Bush apologists are fond of hand waving and saying “let’s not jump to conclusions, we must wait until all the facts are in.” That time has arrived. [/QUOTE] Let’s not jump to conclusions, we must wait until more convenient facts have been concocted and we’ve finished smearing the messenger. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/72 "2007-11-21T16:15:12Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Can we lynch him now? [/QUOTE] No. February 2009. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/73 "2007-11-21T17:11:58Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Well, Nixon was re-elected after Watergate occured, and look how that turned out for him. Bush apologists are fond of hand waving and saying “let’s not jump to conclusions, we must wait until all the facts are in.” That time has arrived. [/QUOTE] And, just as suddenly, is gone. No point dwelling on the past. Time to move on. We owe it to the troops. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/74 "2007-11-21T21:36:02Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Well, we have a new Congress now. [/QUOTE] Fat lot of good that’s done us so far. The Democrats had a golden opportunity to stand up to GWB and his puppet-masters, make a stand on Iraq and fix the economy, reinstate funding for stem cell research, etc…and all they’ve done so far is waggle their fingers at Turkey for that stupid genocidal nonsense which happened 100 years ago. If Americans keep electing representatives who are too spineless to take a stand on these issues, maybe we as a nation _deserve_ to have our Executive Branch controlled by an evil, false Christian, self-serving, corporate-controlled oligarchy. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/75 "2007-11-21T22:13:50Z")
[Publisher: McClellan doesn’t believe Bush lied Spokesman ‘did not intend to suggest’ the president purposely misled him](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917188/) > [@](#): > > Osnos says when McClellan went before the White House press corps in 2003 to publicly exonerate Libby and Rove, the problem was that his statement was not true. Osnos said the president told McClellan what “he thought to be the case.” But, he says, McClellan believes, “the president didn’t know it was not true.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/76 "2007-11-21T23:04:21Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] [Publisher: McClellan doesn’t believe Bush lied Spokesman ‘did not intend to suggest’ the president purposely misled him](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917188/) [/QUOTE] Wow. Rock-solid proof, right, **Fear**? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2007, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/77 "2007-11-21T23:14:29Z")
I win a prize, now, right? Right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2007, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/78 "2007-11-22T00:15:13Z")
[QUOTE=The Librarian] Name one famous quote that is true. [/QUOTE] “You will go home, safe and free.” – Bill Clinton to the Albanian Kosovar refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/79 "2007-11-22T02:47:18Z")
I assume that the OP now takes the position that McClellan’s word is NOT absolute proof, since now he’s saying that Bush didn’t lie. Is that correct? Is the man’s word only proof when it proves what you want to have proved? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2007, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236/80 "2007-11-22T04:31:18Z")
He may very well be entirely innocent of the conspiracy, since I don’t think Karl and “Big Dick” tell him any more than they have to. You got skullduggery afoot, a delicate conspiracy, you’d tell George about it? Like hell you would. Except for that part where he said he would deal pretty sternly with any miscreants. Of course, you gotta remember: he may not have been making a promise so much as a _prediction_, you know, based on probabilities, the facts on the ground. Its like predicting the weather in a way, and you can’t be that pissed off if he guesses wrong, now can you? If I don’t know what he’s going to do next, can I really blame him if he doesn’t? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-lied-and-now-we-have-proof/427236.md?page=5)