# Bush May Have Authorized Torture Via Executive Order. ACLU Obtains New Docs. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909 "2004-12-21T03:00:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/21 "2004-12-21T05:56:55Z")
And let us not forget that the Bush Administration apparently now has other countries going after American citizens so as to avoid US laws: > [@](#): > > Ahmed Abu Ali, a twenty-three-year-old Northern Virginia man, is being held without charges in Saudi Arabia. Arrested in June 2003, he has spent eighteen months in custody but has yet to see a lawyer. > > Omar Abu Ali, Ahmed’s father, says that after his son was arrested in Saudi Arabia, he and his wife turned to the U.S. State Department for help. Publicly, the State Department proclaims that one of its “most essential tasks” is to provide assistance to U.S. citizens incarcerated abroad. Because detainees in Saudi Arabia often face torture and other abuse, Abu Ali’s parents must have imagined that U.S. efforts could be critically important in protecting their son. > > – snip – > > But perhaps more shocking than what Abu Ali’s parents learned about their son’s treatment, was what they discovered about its causes. **A U.S. district court ruling issued last week cites evidence suggesting that U.S. officials initiated their son’s arrest, that the U.S. government is behind their son’s continued detention, and that the reason the U.S. is keeping their son in Saudi Arabia is to avoid the scrutiny of the federal courts.** Source: [http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20041220.html](http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20041220.html) In the court of American public opinion, do we weigh the preponderance of the evidence so far, or must it be beyond a resonable doubt? Or will the American People continue to turn a blind eye? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/22 "2004-12-21T06:15:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Or will the American People continue to turn a blind eye? If this EO never sees the light of day, I’d certainly guess the latter. If a doc with Jr’s signature appears, let’s look at it again. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/23 "2004-12-21T06:17:07Z")
Little noted at the bottom of the same general story in the _New York Times_, a Guantanamo prisoner has been released after it was determined that he was not really an enemy combatant after all. Ooopsy! So he didn’t necessarily hate America when he was picked up. But I’ll bet you hummus to camel dung, he does now. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/24 "2004-12-21T11:48:43Z")
I really wanted to participate in this thread, but I was too busy [lying in a forced foetal position with someone stubbing a cigarette out in my ear](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4113679.stm). ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/25 "2004-12-21T12:41:14Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > I should never have opened this thread, let alone posted in it. Apologies. > Have a good one. Not to criticize John specifically… but pro-Bush people should think of these Torture accusations as a possible very dirty stain. If these stories are blown out of proportion… then you have a overly headline seeking media… on the other hand if these stories are true… then your country is abusing human rights and playing the villain like any other shitty 3rd world despot. Just sticking your head in the sand won’t change the fact that your going down a very dark path… possibly. ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/26 "2004-12-21T12:55:18Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Perhaps I missed the stuff, but this is not clear to me at all. I noticed one mention of witnessing “sleep deprivation” and some mention of strobe lights and loud music. As someone who is very interested in lambasting the administration with this charge, could you point out to me the part about torture? > > Sleep deprivation, hoods, loud music and strobe lights do not in and of themselves contitute torture. When used to excess they can be a tool of torture. From the ACLU site: > [@](#): > > “They tortured me and cuffed me in an act called the scorpion, and pouring cold water on me They tortured me from morning until the morning of the next day, and when I fell down from the severe torture I fell on the barbed wires, and then they dragged me from my feet and I was wounded and, and they punched me on my stomach.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/27 "2004-12-21T13:29:29Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > I should never have opened this thread, let alone posted in it. Apologies. > > Have a good one. Yeah, put those blinders back on, heaven forbid you should read anything that challenges your blind devotion to the party line. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/28 "2004-12-21T13:34:01Z")
**pervert** , perhaps you’d be more prepared to believe allegations of torture when they’re being made by [the FBI](http://www.itv.com/news/index_212884.html)? It’s quite interesting to see how far apologists can go in the face of overwhelming evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/29 "2004-12-21T14:03:46Z")
It’s been known for a good while that tough interrogation techniques have been used on enemy combatants. The best examination of this issue I’ve read was by Mark Bowden in the October 2003 _Atlantic_. His conclusion was that these techniques stopped short of torture, and were perfectly justified by the threat posed. > [@Mark Bowden](#): > > The Bush Administration has adopted exactly the right posture on the matter. Candor and consistency are not always public virtues. Torture is a crime against humanity, but coercion is an issue that is rightly handled with a wink, or even a touch of hypocrisy; it should be banned but also quietly practiced. Those who protest coercive methods will exaggerate their horrors, which is good: it generates a useful climate of fear. It is wise of the President to reiterate U.S. support for international agreements banning torture, and it is wise for American interrogators to employ whatever coercive methods work. It is also smart not to discuss the matter with anyone. > > If interrogators step over the line from coercion to outright torture, they should be held personally responsible. But no interrogator is ever going to be prosecuted for keeping Khalid Sheikh Mohammed awake, cold, alone, and uncomfortable. Nor should he be. I especially like the line that protesting the horrors only helps create a climate of fear. Thanks so much for your help, **Diogenes**. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/30 "2004-12-21T14:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Torture is a crime against humanity, but coercion is an issue that is rightly handled with a wink, or even a touch of hypocrisy; it should be banned but also quietly practiced. Rightly handled with a touch of hypocrisy? What classic doublespeak! What the US military is practicing clearly crosses well over the line from acceptable to unacceptable. These are crimes against humanity and the criminals should be punished, even if the chain of guilt proceeds all the way to the Oval Office. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/31 "2004-12-21T14:39:12Z")
Thanks for your help too, **BobLibDem**. Are sleep deprivation or stress positions really torture? I endured both when I was a Navy recruit. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/32 "2004-12-21T14:42:16Z")
> [@](#): > > It described strangulation, beatings and the placing of lit cigarettes into detainees’ ears. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4113679.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4113679.stm) Did you get that when you were a recruit? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/33 "2004-12-21T14:44:33Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Thanks for your help too, **BobLibDem**. > > Are sleep deprivation or stress positions really torture? I endured both when I was a Navy recruit. Was this routine hazing in boot camp? If so, I’m sure the intensity and duration were much less than what the US is giving its captives. But when you were in the Navy, you could take comfort in the fact that if you were captured, you would not be tortured in retaliation for the tortures inflicted by your countrymen. You may have wound up tortured anyway, but at least the actions of your president didn’t put you in such jeopardy. Now, enemies of the US have no incentive not to torture any Americans they take prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/34 "2004-12-21T14:54:55Z")
Gee, **Moto** , you were in the Navy? How come you never mention it? Well, that certainly settles that! So its all about sleep deprivation and “stress positions”, and that’s all? Excellent! Case closed, because Heaven knows, our Gov would never lie to us. Very much. Unless it OK, because its national security. And just because they won’t let us know whats going on, is no reason to be suspicious. Just and noble people are modest that way, we would be embarassed to have the world see what splendidly civilized people we are, how proper and circumspect we can be. We are in the right, defending against brutal and uncivilized people. This can be shown conclusively by our hypocrisy! We pay lip service to a very high set of standards, we pretend to a very refined set of principles. We’re lying, of course, but that doesn’t matter, what matters is maintaining the _illusion_ that we are more civilized. And if we practice a bit of unorthodox acupuncture by way of cigarette, why, look what we might gain! We could find out what was going on two, three years ago! What an enormous intelligence advantage! I have met cynics, friend **Moto**. I have never yet met one who didn’t regard himself as hard-headed and realistic. You are perilously close to joining them. What doth it profit a man, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/35 "2004-12-21T14:58:25Z")
**yojimbo** , that incident happened in Iraq. I’m on record deploring the Abu Ghraib incident and related incidents, as these clearly went over the line. **BobLibDem** , I took no comfort in the Navy from what would probably happen to me as a prisoner of war. The U.S. military doesn’t tell its members to expect good treatment. It tells them to expect abuse and genuine torture. I’m not talking about sleep deprivation and loud music here. I’m talking about the kinds of acts that left John McCain unable to comb his own hair today. Please note, too, the fact that Jessica Lynch was sexually assaulted while badly injured. You’re living in a dream world, **BobLibDem** , if you think only recent actions have given our enemies the desire to torture our soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/36 "2004-12-21T15:04:35Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > …Please note, too, the fact that Jessica Lynch was sexually assaulted while badly injured… Please note that this story is dubious. Please note that you spread this story as though it were uquestioned truth. It is not. > [@](#): > > …You’re living in a dream world, **BobLibDem** , if you think only recent actions have given our enemies the desire to torture our soldiers. Indeed, **BLD**. You should be more hard-headed and realistic. Like **Moto**. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/37 "2004-12-21T15:07:39Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I especially like the line that protesting the horrors only helps create a climate of fear. Thanks so much for your help, **Diogenes**. I tell you, all these kids in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and Iraq hear that the US is torturing their countrymen who may be completely innocent, and these kids say, “Well, I _was_ gonna join Al Qaeda and fight against these evil monsters, but they torture prisoners? Forget it!” Hmm. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/38 "2004-12-21T15:08:03Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > It’s been known for a good while that tough interrogation techniques have been used on enemy combatants. The best examination of this issue I’ve read was by Mark Bowden in the October 2003 _Atlantic_. > > His conclusion was that these techniques stopped short of torture, and were perfectly justified by the threat posed. > > I especially like the line that protesting the horrors only helps create a climate of fear. Thanks so much for your help, **Diogenes**. **Mr Moto** , I’m sure you’ve heard of the case of Abassin Sayed, the taxi driver who was locked up in Guantanamo Bay for a year before release. The man can hardly walk any more, has poor eyesight, lost his job and his business all because he was turned in by Afghani’s at a checkpoint who were after bounty payments. I take it that you consider that no interregator should be held accountable for his treatment, despite the fact his innocence was clear from the time of incarceration, that the “interegation” at Guantanamo has destroyed his health, and his livelihood? I take it you believe there is nothing wrong with punishing innocent people, as long as a few bad apples are caught? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=243819&highlight=banquet+bear](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=243819&highlight=banquet+bear) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/39 "2004-12-21T15:08:57Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > You’re living in a dream world, **BobLibDem** , if you think only recent actions have given our enemies the desire to torture our soldiers. No, but they give more reason. America’s torturing prisoners only adds fuel to the anti-American fires raging throughout the Middle East. Any information gained in this manner is far outweighed by the negative reaction world wide. You may like the climate of fear, Mr. Moto, but these actions also create a climate of hatred throughout the world. The cost is not worth the benefit, in addition to being morally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/40 "2004-12-21T15:14:18Z")
Sleep deprivation and stress positions ARE genuine torture. No, it’s not the kind of sleep deprivation you went through in the Navy. I went through that too. It’s not like pulling a 24 hour watch or having to get up at 4:30 AM. We’re talking about weeks here and we’re also talking about a much different context. “Stress positioning” sounds so benign but what it really means is physically contorting someone’s body in order to cause excruciating pain. Then there’s all the screaming, the threats, the isolation from family, the fear, all of the psychological torture which is non-existent in the Navy (and please don’t try to compare it with boot camp) The FBI itself called these things torture. It is also known that these practices are useless at producing information and I would like to remind you that we don’t have any reason to believe that these prisoners knew anything or had done anything wrong to begin with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909.md?page=3)