# Bush May Have Authorized Torture Via Executive Order. ACLU Obtains New Docs. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909 "2004-12-21T03:00:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/41 "2004-12-21T15:15:37Z")
_Odint dum metuant_ - “Let them hate us, so long as they fear us”. The motto of Caligula. Has a nice ring to it, might be more realistic than that silly _Novus Ordo Seclorum_. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/42 "2004-12-21T15:17:18Z")
And I’m sure you’ve heard, conversely, of combatants who resumed fighting after their release, **Banquet Bear**. It’s not an ideal situation any way you look at it. Too much caution might ensnare the innocent for far longer than necessary. Laxity will set people free who will fight us again. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/43 "2004-12-21T15:19:35Z")
BTW, **Moto** what kind of stress positioning did you endure in the Navy? Did you have to stand at parade rest for a couple of hours? Sleep on an unfocomfortable rack? Sit on the floor? Do some push ups? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/44 "2004-12-21T15:20:49Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And I’m sure you’ve heard, conversely, of combatants who resumed fighting after their release, **Banquet Bear**. > > It’s not an ideal situation any way you look at it. Too much caution might ensnare the innocent for far longer than necessary. Laxity will set people free who will fight us again. …so you **do** believe that innocent people should be punished? Incredible. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/45 "2004-12-21T15:22:11Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And I’m sure you’ve heard, conversely, of combatants who resumed fighting after their release, **Banquet Bear**. Or maybe just decided to _start_ fighting and who can blame them? > [@](#): > > It’s not an ideal situation any way you look at it. Too much caution might ensnare the innocent for far longer than necessary. Laxity will set people free who will fight us again. I’ll opt for the latter. It’s the only moral choice and the former creates far more enemies anyway. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/46 "2004-12-21T15:23:56Z")
Oh? Combatants who resumed fighting after being released. You’re sure of this? Of course you are, The Leader said so. Lets take a hypothetical. Just a wild conjecture, for the heck of it. Lets say you were seized here in America by the government of Elbonia. You had no particular feelings one way or the other about Elbonia, though most of your neighbors didn’t much like them. But somebody told the Elbonians that you were their enemy, and they grabbed you and spirited you away to thier secret base on the island of Tasmania, and subjected you to…discomfort. Let’s be delicate about this, shall we? You tell them for two years that you are innocent, that you know nothing. They don’t believe you. This goes on for a couple of years, and then they let you go. Because you are, in fact, innocent. What’s the first thing you’re going to do? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/47 "2004-12-21T15:46:14Z")
> [@FriendRob](#): > > From the ACLU site: > :dubious: Thank you. I appologize for asking again, but can you point out to me where on the ACLU site you found this? Yes, **jjim** , thank you as well. That article says much the same as the one linked to in the OP. It does contian a few more details, and it mentions one of the emails by date and title. If you look at the email in question, you’ll find that it is a note from one FBI person to another describing what a third _unidentified_ person says he saw at a prison in Iraq. Some of the articles about this are already implying that it was the FBI who saw the abuse. You certainly were. Can you find the email which backs up this claim? FTR, I never said I did not believe the allegations. I am only trying to decide exactly what the allegations are? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/48 "2004-12-21T15:52:06Z")
Elucidator, we all know that when the USA does this, these brown skinned Towel Heads who delusively thought of themselves to be human beings previous to their encounter with the Great USA, should first of all -crying of sheer emotion and gratefullness for the undeserved miracle that came over them - thank the USA for letting them share the US Dream for so long without getting killed by its Glory and its Democratic Ways. Returning home af many years of US Blessings they should set up a brandnew newspaper and write (since of course the US Glorious Prison Camp teached them to write, what do you think they do there but bringing these Towel Heads the blessings of US civilisation) nothing else then Love Stories about the Great USA. If then such ungrateful Towel Heads, being released from the Education in US Dream and US Greatness Camp show themselves to be _stil_ that backwards and dumb that they do not understand anything about all of the Great Gifts bestowed on them for so many years by the Great Democratic Human Rights Defender USA 1… You must admit that they are utterly hopeless cases. Better shoot them immediately, like in Fallujah or like the “mercy killing” of that Iraqy boy. They are not even worht the effort of the mercyfull US imprisonment. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/49 "2004-12-21T15:57:38Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Sleep deprivation and stress positions ARE genuine torture. No, it’s not the kind of sleep deprivation you went through in the Navy. I went through that too. It’s not like pulling a 24 hour watch or having to get up at 4:30 AM. We’re talking about weeks here and we’re also talking about a much different context. Good, now we are getting somewhere. Can you point to the email which confirms this “weeks” hypothesis? > [@](#): > > “Stress positioning” sounds so benign but what it really means is physically contorting someone’s body in order to cause excruciating pain. Again, please, can you point out which email or emails confirm this? > [@](#): > > Then there’s all the screaming, the threats, the isolation from family, the fear, all of the psychological torture which is non-existent in the Navy (and please don’t try to compare it with boot camp) I’ve never been to boot camp, but I could very easily see that screaming, threats, isolation from family and even fear all play a part. The essential question is whether they are taken too far. Again, we have an issue where certain words could mean inhumane torture, or they could simply mean very aggressive persuasion. > [@](#): > > The FBI itself called these things torture. Good. This is getting somewhere. Can you tell me which email confirms this? > [@](#): > > It is also known that these practices are useless at producing information… You have been throwing this around a lot too. I happen to agree with you on this. But you have yet to show me where you learned this. Certainly you did not make it up. Look, I know that I am just asking for help looking through a cite. I don’t mean this to be snide. But isn’t it possible to have just one discussion about Iraq without distorting the evidence? Can’t we just discuss what the evidence says rather than take the word of some reporter or worse assume? Seriously. I’m willing to be convinced. Show me an email where an FBI agent witnessed torture and used that word. Show me an email where an FBI agent interviewed an eye witness and believed him. Show me an email where an FBI agent found corroborating evidence. Heck, just show me one where an FBI agent claims that anything other than aggressive interrogation is going on. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/50 "2004-12-21T16:10:41Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Show me an email where an FBI agent witnessed torture and used that word. Does **DtC** get to fill in the redacted bits with the word of his choice? I looked through the memos yesterday, and there were plenty of blank spots where the word torture would fit in just swell. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/51 "2004-12-21T16:15:28Z")
We’re not playing Mad Libs here, **Squink**. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/52 "2004-12-21T16:20:07Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Good, now we are getting somewhere. Can you point to the email which confirms this “weeks” hypothesis? I’m speaking in general of what sleep deprivation means as an interrorgation tactic. Don’t be cute. > [@](#): > > Again, please, can you point out which email or emails confirm this? Ditto. > [@](#): > > I’ve never been to boot camp, but I could very easily see that screaming, threats, isolation from family and even fear all play a part. I’ve been to boot camp and the psychological stress is no big deal. You sleep less, they call you names and they wear you out but you know it’s only going to last for eight weeks, you are allowed some limited communication with family. You do get SOME sleep, there is no physical stress which actually has the potential to cause permanant injury or unbearable pain, they don’t lock you in unventilated 100 degree rooms over night, there is no _mortal fear_ and not for nothing but _you volunteered to be there_ and get this _you can leave_. You can refuse training and process out. You are not a prisoner and you are not denied family or counsel for a period of years. Boot camp is nothing like Gitmo, I assure you. > [@](#): > > The essential question is whether they are taken too far. Again, we have an issue where certain words could mean inhumane torture, or they could simply mean very aggressive persuasion. > > Good. This is getting somewhere. Can you tell me which email confirms this? [Here you go](http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.3977.pdf) (warning: pdf) > [@](#): > > “Of concern, DOD interrogators impersonating Supervisory Special Agents of the FBI told a detainee that REDACTED. These same interrogation teams then REDACTED. The detainee was also told by this interrogation team REDACTED. **These tactics have produced no intelligence of a threat neutralization nature to date** and CITF believes that techniques have destroyed any chance of prosecuting this detainee. If this detainee is ever released or his story made public in any way, DOD interrogators will not be held accountable because **these torture techniques** were done the “FBI” interrogators. The FBI will be left holding the bag before the public.” You have been throwing this around a lot too. I happen to agree with you on this. But you have yet to show me where you learned this. Certainly you did not make it up. [/quote] Look at the first bolded portion above. If you want more evidence of the ineffectiveness of torture (or if you prefer “aggressive interrogation”) I’ll try to dig some stuff up for you. Look, I know that I am just asking for help looking through a cite. I don’t mean this to be snide. But isn’t it possible to have just one discussion about Iraq without distorting the evidence? Can’t we just discuss what the evidence says rather than take the word of some reporter or worse assume? Seriously. I’m willing to be convinced. Show me an email where an FBI agent witnessed torture and used that word. Show me an email where an FBI agent interviewed an eye witness and believed him. Show me an email where an FBI agent found corroborating evidence. Heck, just show me one where an FBI agent claims that anything other than aggressive interrogation is going on. [/QUOTE] You have it. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/53 "2004-12-21T16:24:21Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Does **DtC** get to fill in the redacted bits with the word of his choice? I looked through the memos yesterday, and there were plenty of blank spots where the word torture would fit in just swell. OK. But is that really the best evidence we have? That “torture” would fit into a blank? If so, then ok, tell me which one so I can decide for myself that “torture” is the best fit. BTW, the last 2 emails on the cite seem to be the best so far. They include an FBI wintess of certain unpleasant techniques. Also, that is where the mention of the Presidential order takes place. I don’t think it is what you thought it was, **Diogenese the Cynic**. Most of the nasty quotes that have been included here and in the articles linked to were merely quotes from other sources. It is unclear whether or not they were believed. Some of them were included in the emails, it seems to me, as merely identifying text. So an FBI agent sent an email to another explaining that he has been requested to appear for an interview with military investigative personel. In relation to that request, a snippet of the abusee’s written complaint is included. When the press gets ahold of it, they say things like “FBI has evidence of abuse”. Clearly implying that the FBI has investigated and found to be credible such allegations when no such thing has happened. I haven’t finished reading them all, but I will soon. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/54 "2004-12-21T16:42:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m speaking in general of what sleep deprivation means as an interrorgation tactic. Don’t be cute. I was not trying to be cute. Are you saying that each and every time someone mentions the use of “sleep deprivation” techniques they mean that the subject was kept awake for weeks? > [@](#): > > Boot camp is nothing like Gitmo, I assure you. I agree entirely. I merely suggested that very similar words could be used to describe both. What I’m saying is that we have to be more careful of our words if we are going to begin saying that we have proof of systemic torture in the American military. > [@](#): > > [Here you go](http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.3977.pdf) (warning: pdf) Thank you very much. But that email seems more concerned with the issue of DOD personel claiming to be FBI personel rather than any sort of description of torture. Their mention of “if his story becomes known…” seems more concerned with scandal than with a revelation of any deeper truth. I read that one back at the begining of the thread. Also, the mention of no information gathered seems to be more about that one prisoner. > [@](#): > > If you want more evidence of the ineffectiveness of torture (or if you prefer “aggressive interrogation”) I’ll try to dig some stuff up for you. No, that seems to be a sidetrack. I agree that torture is not an effective interview technique. I am simply looking for better evidence that torture is what is going on. > [@](#): > > You have it. I’m not so sure. The begining of that email suggests that the FBI has problems with DOD interigation techniques. It ends with a use of the word “torture”. I tend to doubt that this use was meant in any way other than “non FBI approved techniques” way. That email seemed much more like a concern about possible future scandal involving the FBI than about the use of illegal interrogation techniques by DOD personel. BTW, did you read the second to last one? Dated 8/02/04? > [@](#): > > On a couple of occasions I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food, or water. Most times they had urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18 ?? 24 hours or more. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/55 "2004-12-21T16:45:51Z")
> [@](#): > > **PERVERT:** Show me an email where an FBI agent witnessed torture and used that word. From this [report.](http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/FBIs-complaints-about-prisoner-torture-ignored/2004/12/07/1102182296434.html?oneclick=true) > [@](#): > > \*In a third episode, a prisoner was allegedly threatened with a dog and the man was placed in “intense isolation”, for three months, causing him “extreme psychological trauma”. He was “talking to nonexistent people, reporting hearing voices, crouching in a corner of the cell covered with a sheet for hours on end”. > > The three incidents were described in a letter dated July 14 this year from T.J.Harrington, deputy assistant director of the FBI’s counterterrorism division, to Major-General Donald Ryder, head of the army’s Criminal Investigation Command. > > \ > > In one message, **Mr Harrington said the military was using “interrogation strategies we not only advised against, but questioned in terms of effectiveness” and that the military often was “producing information that was not reliable”**.\* Then we need to see examples of letters sent to or from Harrington. You can see one such [here.](http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/t3131_3133.pdf) (PDF). Extracts below: > [@](#): > > _Although the two techniques differed drastically, both Generals believed they had a job to accomplish. It was our mission to gather critical intelligence and evidence [xxx] in furtherance of FBI cases. In my weekly meetings with DOJ **we often discussed [A] techniques and how they were not effective or producing intel that was reliable**._ > [@](#): > > _The conversations were somewhat heated. [_**] agreed with me. [**\*] finally admitted the information was the same info the Bureau obtained. It still did not prevent them from continuing the [A] methods. \* A = torture / interrogation / interview / questioning? (The latter more likely on length.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/56 "2004-12-21T16:46:50Z")
Well, I wasn’t expecting the FBI! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/57 "2004-12-21T17:08:32Z")
NOBODY expects the… No. I won’t do it. We’ll be into the Parrot sketch within five posts. **Pervert** , you asked for a cite in which the FBI used the word “torture” and called the techniques ineffective. I provided both in one email. Now you seem to want t argue that when they said “torture,” they really didn’t mean torture. I don’t know what to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/58 "2004-12-21T17:19:16Z")
You all are forgetting one big difference between being a military prisoner in Iraq or Gitmo and being in basic training - in basic training you can leave, and if the ‘abuse’ gets too bad you can run to the Chapel or to the JAG corps and find redress. The prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo can’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/59 "2004-12-21T18:07:55Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Aren’t you glad the people voted based on “moral values”? > > I could cry. Me too. But stop believing the bullshit about the moral values thing. The votes that won it for Koko (besides the fake ones, I mean) were terrorism-motivated. I don’t marshall my cites to transcribe the way I used to, but I’ve been reading in serveral places recently about the breakdowns in the vote, and what it boils down to is that the 9/11 chanting worked. Sickeningly. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909/60 "2004-12-21T18:29:58Z")
**DtC** and **luci** try to fight the good fight, but let’s face it: To those who currently support TWAT (perhaps that should be plural), human rights and civil liberties are simply irrelevant. These aren’t people we’re dealing with; they’re terroristic, camel-jockeying, towel-headed sand niggers, and the only good one’s a dead one. You could have Bush and Rummy making Osama airtight on national TV, and, just as with the perversion witnessed at Abu Ghraib, somebody will point out that, heck, it’s not like they was beheading people. I mean, beheadin’s just barbarical. Forget it. Reason lost. The only thing that will turn the repugnican mind around is more coffins with Old Glory draped over them. Lots more. Meanwhile, keep your kids in college, and let the troglodytes send theirs to fight TWAT. When enough come home daid, they’ll get the peace bug, but not a moment before. They cannot empathize with an enemy they do not regard as human, so they’ll only lose their fervor when the pain they feel is their own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-have-authorized-torture-via-executive-order-aclu-obtains-new-docs/280909.md?page=4)