And let us not forget that the Bush Administration apparently now has other countries going after American citizens so as to avoid US laws:
Source: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20041220.html
In the court of American public opinion, do we weigh the preponderance of the evidence so far, or must it be beyond a resonable doubt?
Or will the American People continue to turn a blind eye?
If this EO never sees the light of day, I’d certainly guess the latter. If a doc with Jr’s signature appears, let’s look at it again.
Little noted at the bottom of the same general story in the New York Times, a Guantanamo prisoner has been released after it was determined that he was not really an enemy combatant after all. Ooopsy!
So he didn’t necessarily hate America when he was picked up. But I’ll bet you hummus to camel dung, he does now.
I really wanted to participate in this thread, but I was too busy lying in a forced foetal position with someone stubbing a cigarette out in my ear.
Not to criticize John specifically… but pro-Bush people should think of these Torture accusations as a possible very dirty stain.
If these stories are blown out of proportion… then you have a overly headline seeking media… on the other hand if these stories are true… then your country is abusing human rights and playing the villain like any other shitty 3rd world despot. Just sticking your head in the sand won’t change the fact that your going down a very dark path… possibly.
From the ACLU site:
:dubious:
Yeah, put those blinders back on, heaven forbid you should read anything that challenges your blind devotion to the party line.
pervert, perhaps you’d be more prepared to believe allegations of torture when they’re being made by the FBI?
It’s quite interesting to see how far apologists can go in the face of overwhelming evidence.
It’s been known for a good while that tough interrogation techniques have been used on enemy combatants. The best examination of this issue I’ve read was by Mark Bowden in the October 2003 Atlantic.
His conclusion was that these techniques stopped short of torture, and were perfectly justified by the threat posed.
I especially like the line that protesting the horrors only helps create a climate of fear. Thanks so much for your help, Diogenes.
Rightly handled with a touch of hypocrisy? What classic doublespeak! What the US military is practicing clearly crosses well over the line from acceptable to unacceptable. These are crimes against humanity and the criminals should be punished, even if the chain of guilt proceeds all the way to the Oval Office.
Thanks for your help too, BobLibDem.
Are sleep deprivation or stress positions really torture? I endured both when I was a Navy recruit.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4113679.stm
Did you get that when you were a recruit?
Was this routine hazing in boot camp? If so, I’m sure the intensity and duration were much less than what the US is giving its captives. But when you were in the Navy, you could take comfort in the fact that if you were captured, you would not be tortured in retaliation for the tortures inflicted by your countrymen. You may have wound up tortured anyway, but at least the actions of your president didn’t put you in such jeopardy. Now, enemies of the US have no incentive not to torture any Americans they take prisoner.
Gee, Moto, you were in the Navy? How come you never mention it? Well, that certainly settles that!
So its all about sleep deprivation and “stress positions”, and that’s all? Excellent! Case closed, because Heaven knows, our Gov would never lie to us. Very much. Unless it OK, because its national security. And just because they won’t let us know whats going on, is no reason to be suspicious. Just and noble people are modest that way, we would be embarassed to have the world see what splendidly civilized people we are, how proper and circumspect we can be.
We are in the right, defending against brutal and uncivilized people. This can be shown conclusively by our hypocrisy! We pay lip service to a very high set of standards, we pretend to a very refined set of principles. We’re lying, of course, but that doesn’t matter, what matters is maintaining the illusion that we are more civilized.
And if we practice a bit of unorthodox acupuncture by way of cigarette, why, look what we might gain! We could find out what was going on two, three years ago! What an enormous intelligence advantage!
I have met cynics, friend Moto. I have never yet met one who didn’t regard himself as hard-headed and realistic. You are perilously close to joining them. What doth it profit a man, and all that.
yojimbo, that incident happened in Iraq. I’m on record deploring the Abu Ghraib incident and related incidents, as these clearly went over the line.
BobLibDem, I took no comfort in the Navy from what would probably happen to me as a prisoner of war. The U.S. military doesn’t tell its members to expect good treatment. It tells them to expect abuse and genuine torture.
I’m not talking about sleep deprivation and loud music here. I’m talking about the kinds of acts that left John McCain unable to comb his own hair today. Please note, too, the fact that Jessica Lynch was sexually assaulted while badly injured.
You’re living in a dream world, BobLibDem, if you think only recent actions have given our enemies the desire to torture our soldiers.
Please note that this story is dubious. Please note that you spread this story as though it were uquestioned truth. It is not.
Indeed, BLD. You should be more hard-headed and realistic. Like Moto.
I tell you, all these kids in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and Iraq hear that the US is torturing their countrymen who may be completely innocent, and these kids say, “Well, I was gonna join Al Qaeda and fight against these evil monsters, but they torture prisoners? Forget it!”
Hmm.
Daniel
Mr Moto , I’m sure you’ve heard of the case of Abassin Sayed, the taxi driver who was locked up in Guantanamo Bay for a year before release. The man can hardly walk any more, has poor eyesight, lost his job and his business all because he was turned in by Afghani’s at a checkpoint who were after bounty payments. I take it that you consider that no interregator should be held accountable for his treatment, despite the fact his innocence was clear from the time of incarceration, that the “interegation” at Guantanamo has destroyed his health, and his livelihood? I take it you believe there is nothing wrong with punishing innocent people, as long as a few bad apples are caught?
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=243819&highlight=banquet+bear
No, but they give more reason. America’s torturing prisoners only adds fuel to the anti-American fires raging throughout the Middle East. Any information gained in this manner is far outweighed by the negative reaction world wide. You may like the climate of fear, Mr. Moto, but these actions also create a climate of hatred throughout the world. The cost is not worth the benefit, in addition to being morally wrong.
Sleep deprivation and stress positions ARE genuine torture. No, it’s not the kind of sleep deprivation you went through in the Navy. I went through that too. It’s not like pulling a 24 hour watch or having to get up at 4:30 AM. We’re talking about weeks here and we’re also talking about a much different context.
“Stress positioning” sounds so benign but what it really means is physically contorting someone’s body in order to cause excruciating pain.
Then there’s all the screaming, the threats, the isolation from family, the fear, all of the psychological torture which is non-existent in the Navy (and please don’t try to compare it with boot camp)
The FBI itself called these things torture. It is also known that these practices are useless at producing information and I would like to remind you that we don’t have any reason to believe that these prisoners knew anything or had done anything wrong to begin with.