# Bush may make use of his first veto on a critical stem cell bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948 "2006-07-18T00:38:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/1 "2006-07-18T00:38:42Z")
From [here:](http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060717/NEWS01/607170310/1009&theme=) > [@](#): > > Congress and the Bush administration are heading toward their first veto fight as the Senate prepares for a vote that would lift the administration’s limits on federally funded research on human embryos. > …The bill, which already has passed the House, would give medical researchers access to surplus frozen embryos from fertility clinics, donated by couples who no longer need them for fertility treatments. > …Opponents say any research that destroys human embryos is unacceptable. They say adult stem cells, which can be found in bone marrow, newborns’ umbilical cords and elsewhere in the body should be used for research instead. > > President Bush, who objects to research on human embryos on moral grounds, has threatened a veto, which would be his first in six years in office. Look here, you dim-witted, block-headed, blinded by your damn “superior morals,” pieces of crap: No one, I repeat, NO ONE will be destroying any more embryos then what are not already geting destroyed to give researchers stem cells. These stem cells are going to come from embryos that are created as part of the in-vitro fertilization process but not used. They are going to get destroyed NO MATTER WHAT! You hear that? I have to yell so you can hear over the sounds of your constituants calling me a baby killer. This is the perfect chance for you to show _real_ support for a pro-stem-cell bill, other than the paltry concessions you made for adult stem cells, which are about as effective as dirt for the type of research these scientists want to do. I cannot think of any rational argument as to why anyone can oppose this type of research. No one is gonig to be “killing babies,” they’re not geting embryos from abortions, they are only using ones that would get destroyed anyway. So, since I cannot fathom a reason as to why any rational person can oppose this, I turn to you to find one for me. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/2 "2006-07-18T00:49:42Z")
Who, me? Hell, I’m chalking this one up as right wing pandering to stifle his Christian right voting base so that maybe the Pubs can try and focus on something else during the November elections. Throw them a bone now, no matter how not founded in reality it may be, then maybe they can do a little damage control maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/3 "2006-07-18T01:52:20Z")
“The stem cells. I hear their crys.” - GWB One of the funniest bits ever written by Garry Trudeau. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/4 "2006-07-18T02:50:53Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > Who, me? Hell, I’m chalking this one up as right wing pandering to stifle his Christian right voting base so that maybe the Pubs can try and focus on something else during the November elections. Throw them a bone now, no matter how not founded in reality it may be, then maybe they can do a little damage control maybe. That doesn’t make much sense since too many Republicans in Congress want the bill passed. They know better than Bush what they need to do to get re-elected in November. The best explanation I can think of is that he really believes it’s “killing babies”. I think people underestimate the willingness Bush has to go against popular opinion to support his principles. He doesn’t need to pander to his base, after all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/5 "2006-07-18T03:20:53Z")
Veto? Why doesn’t he just sign the bill and attach a “signing statement” that he’s gonna withhold the funds anyway? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/6 "2006-07-18T03:48:56Z")
My view; I think he’s simply evil. He _enjoys_ hurting and killing people, and suppressing important medical research will hurt and kill many people, which makes him happy. If he could get away with it, I expect he’d outlaw medical care for everyone besides himself and his fellow rich scum. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/7 "2006-07-18T03:56:35Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > My view; I think he’s simply evil. I really don’t credit him with that much imagination. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/8 "2006-07-18T04:09:48Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > My view; I think he’s simply evil. He _enjoys_ hurting and killing people, and suppressing important medical research will hurt and kill many people, which makes him happy. If he could get away with it, I expect he’d outlaw medical care for everyone besides himself and his fellow rich scum. _Outlaw medical care? Hurting and killing makes him happy?_ Are you serious? Do you mean to argue that George W. Bush is literally, in the clinical and not rhetorical sense of the word, a psychopathic sadist? As for the topic at hand, I would be very interested in an argument against stem cell research in light of the facts that– 1. Frozen embryo stocks are destroyed anyway. 2. Current human embryonic stem cell lines are apparently suboptimal for research. 3. Other countries are rapidly making headway in embryonic stem cell research; the United States is already at an early disadvantage should we choose to reenter the field. This is exemplified by a small but siginificant migration of talent from the States to countries more permissive of such research. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/9 "2006-07-18T07:28:48Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > My view; I think he’s simply evil. He _enjoys_ hurting and killing people, and suppressing important medical research will hurt and kill many people, which makes him happy. If he could get away with it, I expect he’d outlaw medical care for everyone besides himself and his fellow rich scum. Nah, he’s not smart enough to be really evil. He’s less “Ho ho! My wealthy friends and I will prosper by depriving the masses of medical advances, bwahahaha!” than “Killing babies is bad! You can’t do that! I will save those poor, poor babies”. See also “Invading Iraq under false pretenses will give us the chance to seize control of the oil for ourselves and make us millions, bwahahaha!” vs. “My daddy doesn’t like that man. That man tried to hurt my daddy. He’s a bad man!”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/10 "2006-07-18T07:36:20Z")
**bouv** , you have the makings of a decent discussion, here–one which other posters are treating with respect–however your opening had all the venom of a simple rant and you almost got it tossed into the **Pit** with your vitriol. If you want to discuss a topic, don’t weigh down your OP with invective. (OTOH, if you want to rant, we can move this to the **Pit** for you.) [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/11 "2006-07-18T07:38:50Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > _Outlaw medical care? Hurting and killing makes him happy?_ Are you serious? Do you mean to argue that George W. Bush is literally, in the clinical and not rhetorical sense of the word, a psychopathic sadist? Yes, or a good imitation. I have trouble believing that it’s mere coincidence that his actions are so consistantly nasty and destructive; I’d expect competence to be more random in it’s effects. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/12 "2006-07-18T07:40:35Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > I’d expect **competence** to be more random in it’s effects. _Incompetence_ ! Of all the words to get wrong. . . ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/13 "2006-07-18T12:39:05Z")
It’s a bad political move, at least for his fellow Republicans. I think something like 2/3 of Americans are for stem cell research, so this could hurt his party. Not that that’s a bad thing in my eyes, but I’d rather have the expanded stem cell research than whatever political damage is done to the Republican party. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/14 "2006-07-18T13:05:42Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > It’s a bad political move, at least for his fellow Republicans. I think something like 2/3 of Americans are for stem cell research… [That’s about right – 63%, according to this poll.](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/poll010803.html) Note that even among evangelicals it gets 50% support, and 57% support from Bush voters. In fact, it doesn’t get a majority opposing it from any of the demographic groups listed. (Also note that it’s embryonic stem cell reserach, as there is other stem cell research that doesn’t involve the destruction of embryos.) ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/15 "2006-07-18T13:11:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The best explanation I can think of is that he really believes it’s “killing babies” Question: Are the frozen embryos in question still viable, or are they past some sort of “best if used by” date? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/16 "2006-07-18T13:16:00Z")
You are all mistaken. President Bush will [sign the stem cell research bill](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060718/sc_nm/congress_stemcells_dc_3) proposed by the House and Senate: > [@](#): > > Bush backs the other two bills, which the House plans to take up later this week. > > One would ban “fetus farming,” prohibiting anyone from implanting an embryo in the womb of a woman or animal for the purpose of extracting cells or tissue. > > The other promotes alternative forms of stem cell research that do not entail destroying an embryo. Most senators say they will vote for the bill, but some Democrats say legislation is designed to give political cover for conservative Republicans because that research is already taking place. So, Bush and Republicans can tell their base that they support stem cell research, as well as protect the rights of frozen, unwanted embryos. It’s a win/win. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/17 "2006-07-18T13:20:29Z")
The sentence in the article cited in the OP that says that Congress and the Bush administration are about to have their first veto fight is not correct. Bush has threatened the use of the veto before. This administration primarily uses the veto threat as a tool to influence the bill, I think. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/18 "2006-07-18T13:36:21Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > Question: Are the frozen embryos in question still viable, or are they past some sort of “best if used by” date? I’m not sure, but I don’t think so. > [@Crotalus](#): > > This administration primarily uses the veto threat as a tool to influence the bill, I think. Good observation. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/19 "2006-07-18T13:42:53Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m not sure, but I don’t think so. I’m still searching around for an answer on this one, but in doing so I came across [this](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050524-10.html) posted on the white house web site (use salt grains where appropriate) where it shows presidential support for having the frozen embryos adopted instead of destroyed. Not that this is conclusive evidance that the embryos in question are still viable, this could just be smokescreen. I’m off to keep looking. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948/20 "2006-07-18T13:53:18Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > _Outlaw medical care? Hurting and killing makes him happy?_ Are you serious? Do you mean to argue that George W. Bush is literally, in the clinical and not rhetorical sense of the word, a psychopathic sadist? I **am not** saying that Bush is a psychopathic sadist. I will however, point out that plenty of World Leaders throughout History **have been** , we merely avoid proclaiming them as such, except retrospectively. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-may-make-use-of-his-first-veto-on-a-critical-stem-cell-bill/364948.md?page=2)