# Bush OKs execution of Army death row prisoner **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002 "2008-07-28T23:52:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/1 "2008-07-28T23:52:14Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080728/ap\_on\_go\_pr\_wh/bush\_military\_execution\_6](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080728/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_military_execution_6) > [@](#): > > President Bush on Monday approved the execution of an Army private, the first time in over a half-century that a president has affirmed a death sentence for a member of the U.S. military. I guess the fun has gone out of being President, and Dubya remembered what always cheered him up when he was governor: > [@](#): > > President Eisenhower was the last president to approve a military execution. In 1957, he approved the execution of John Bennett, an Army private convicted of raping and attempting to kill an 11-year-old Austrian girl. He was hanged in 1961. No doubt he was a little desperate to shine up his legacy, and what better way than to break a 50 moratorium. > [@](#): > > The president’s thoughts and prayers are with the victims of these heinous crimes and their families and all others affected." How thoughtful of him to add the “all others” bit; I am sure the condemned’s family will take comfort from that. For the record, I am against the death penalty, even as retribution for heinous crimes. I believe it lowers our society to level of the murderer as it appeals to the lust for revenge. No crime justifies the deliberate and measured taking of a life by the state. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/2 "2008-07-29T00:04:11Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] For the record, I am against the death penalty, even as retribution for heinous crimes. I believe it lowers our society to level of the murderer as it appeals to the lust for revenge. No crime justifies the deliberate and measured taking of a life by the state. [/QUOTE] I agree entirely, but damn if Private Gray doesn’t come this close to making me change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/3 "2008-07-29T00:12:35Z")
I hate Bush as much as I’ve hated any man, but _damn_, I’m with him on this one. That guy’s date with the needle can’t come soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Amp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/4 "2008-07-29T00:20:48Z")
Yeah, I thought it was going to be for something stupid like desertion but after reading what he was convicted of I wonder what took so long. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/5 "2008-07-29T00:21:39Z")
Good for George! ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/6 "2008-07-29T00:24:25Z")
**Fear Itself** , I want to say that I respect your position. Especially when you’re speaking up against the execution of someone like Ronald A. Gray. That says a lot, IMNSHO, about your integrity. It’s easy to oppose the death penalty for moral reasons when the person whose execution you’re trying to block has some hint of impropriety about the conviction. It’s much less easy when you’re protesting the execution of someone who seems to have acted as a vicious animal. I am sorry to say that I don’t agree with your conclusions. I’m becoming anti-death penalty, but that’s got far more to do with the flawed implementation I’ve been seeing nationwide, such as the fact that [Thomas Capano](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Capano) appealed his way off Death Row. Before that time one could argue that even the rich and powerful were at jeopardy of the death penalty, and use Capano’s case as evidence. Now, I suspect that there are a number of people on Delaware’s death row who were handed down death penalty sentences by non-unanimous juries, who will never get that protection that Capano’s money and family influence got for him. I remain convinced, however, that there are people who should never leave a prison alive. And Robert Gray’s crime, as described in the article, puts him pretty clearly into that category. And if he’s never to see liberty again, I’m still not convinced that mercy isn’t on the side of a quick execution. I grant that this is predicated upon the assumption that there’s no specific reason to question the verdict handed down to Robert Gray. If you can show any specific doubt in this case, my position will march with yours, even though I’ll be coming there from different reasoning. In short, as long as the current laws of the land have been followed, I’m not going to shed tears over this guy’s execution. Even though I will support death penalty bans with my ballot. It’s not because I have a moral objection to the idea of a death penalty, but that I have practical and moral objections with how the death penalty is working out in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/7 "2008-07-29T00:36:48Z")
If the U.S. army needs volunteers from allied forces to serve on a firing squad, I’m up for it. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/8 "2008-07-29T00:43:18Z")
I read the OP a while ago, and a couple things just sank in. At first I thought the motivations and whatnot ascribed to the President was fairly hyperbolic—now, I’m not so sure. How many other requests for the death penalty (either USMJ or the Justice Depatment) have come in over the last eight years? How many has he approved? Has this been sitting on his proverbial desk for eight years? If this is another in a long string of them, then despite my concurrence with the OP’s anti-death penalty viewpoint, I don’t agree that it’s President Bush acting like an extraordinary tool. If it is anomalous action, then my view of him has sunk even lower than before (not an easy feat). Secondly, does anyone know the time span between the President’s signature/approval and the actual execution? Is it likely to occur before the election or inauguration? If afterwards, it seems like a mighty fuck you to the incoming president. Even assuming McCain is pro-death penalty, I’d still like to think that when faced with an actual execution, it is a weighty matter. Making the decision for him is a shitty thing to do to another person. Of course, assuming Obama is anti-death penalty, putting him in the politically precarious position of either allowing the execution to take place or commuting the sentence is an absolutely inhuman thing to—playing political Gotcha Ya with a human being’s life. Whether or not the person is repugnant or not should not diminish the atrocity that is using him in this manner. Of course, if the execution is all set (post-appeals, etc.) and will take place prior to the election, then much of the above is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/9 "2008-07-29T01:06:09Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] No crime justifies the deliberate and measured taking of a life by the state. [/QUOTE] And you would be wrong on that. > [@](#): > > Gray had had been convicted in connection with a spree of four murders and eight rapes in the Fayetteville, N.C., area over eight months in the late 1980s while stationed at Fort Bragg. You want to be pissed about something, be pissed about the fact that the taxpayers have had to support this scumbag in jail instead of standing him in front of a wall and blowing his ass away 20 years ago. Why, yes, I do support the death penalty. Why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/10 "2008-07-29T01:15:12Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] And if he’s never to see liberty again, I’m still not convinced that mercy isn’t on the side of a quick execution. [/QUOTE] He can always commit suicide if he chooses to. That’s up to him. > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Of course, assuming Obama is anti-death penalty, … He is not. One of my disagreements with him. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/11 "2008-07-29T01:21:25Z")
I am all in favor of assisted suicide for prison inmates, but not the death penalty. No matter what-- unless requested by the prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/12 "2008-07-29T01:21:50Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] He can always commit suicide if he chooses to. That’s up to him. [/QUOTE] Does that mean you’re going to take away the suicide watch in prisons, **Frank**? FTM, are you going to take away the moral responsibility of the guards and medical personnel attached to his prison to treat an unresponsive patient, even if the wounds appear to be self-inflicted? Unless you’re advocating that, I don’t buy your alternative as being viable. Tell me you oppose my choice for moral reasons and I’ll have a good deal of respect for your position. This suggestion, on the other hand, seems utterly half-assed, and poorly thought out. I’m not trying to suggest that suicide in prisons is impossible, but it is something that we expect the guards to act to prevent. And often enough, the difference between preventing a suicide or taking out a body is simple chance or timing that could have gone the other way, just as easily. So, I reject your implication that suicide for a prisoner will **always** be an effective escape. ETA: **Boyo Jim** , assisted suicide is something else altogether than what **Frank** seems to be proposing. For one thing, there’s far, far less chance of being left trying to aid a botched suicide attempt. For another, by its very nature, assisted suicide cannot happen without the guards’ knowing collusion. And with medical supervision. One of the reasons that assisted suicide is such a controversial topic. If one is in a state where assisted suicide is legal for the terminally ill, I’d have no problem with that for inmates. But there should be the same protections in law and custom for the inmates as there would be for those people contemplating it outside the prisons, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/13 "2008-07-29T01:22:59Z")
Holy Jesus, if anyone deserved the death penalty, it was this guy. Thank you, Bush, for doing something right. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/14 "2008-07-29T01:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] He can always commit suicide if he chooses to. That’s up to him. [/QUOTE] Easier said than done in a Max or Supermax facility. I’ve seen far, far more failed, _genuine_ suicide attempts than successful suicides in prison. While I’m philosophically & intellectually opposed to the death penalty, my emotions won’t be troubled by this execution. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/15 "2008-07-29T01:29:17Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] Does that mean you’re going to take away the suicide watch in prisons, **Frank**? [/QUOTE] A suicide watch is generally for new inmates, most of whom aren’t even in prison yet, but in jail, and generally distraught. I support keeping an eye on this sort till they settle down. On the other hand, if someone who has been sentenced to life without parole decides that death is preferable, I support his right to suicide. He is the only one with the right to decide that, not you, not me. Out of curiousity, in what way are my reasons for opposing the death penalty relevant to this line of discussion? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/16 "2008-07-29T01:33:50Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] While I’m philosophically & intellectually opposed to the death penalty, my emotions won’t be troubled by this execution. [/QUOTE] Ditto. The world will be a better place with this guy not a part of it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/17 "2008-07-29T01:35:32Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I support his right to suicide. [/QUOTE] In what state of the US does a prisoner have a right to suicide? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/18 "2008-07-29T01:38:42Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] A suicide watch is generally for new inmates, most of whom aren’t even in prison yet, but in jail, and generally distraught. I support keeping an eye on this sort till they settle down. [/quote] AIUI, it’s also for any inmate who has shown behavior that indicates suicide is risk for them. As defined at the moment, the guards in a prison have a moral and legal obligation to act to preserve the health and welfare of the inmates in their charge. That this obligation is ignored all too often doesn’t change that it exists. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, if someone who has been sentenced to life without parole decides that death is preferable, I support his right to suicide. He is the only one with the right to decide that, not you, not me. > > Out of curiousity, in what way are my reasons for opposing the death penalty relevant to this line of discussion? Well, considering we started this because of my reasons for a theoretical support of the death penalty, I assumed you were making the argument for suicide vice prison for the rest of the convict’s natural life to counter my reasoning posted earlier. ETA: A question for **Qadgop** : Is one of the additional things for prisoners on Death Row, compared what the general population gets, a suicide watch? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/19 "2008-07-29T01:47:47Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] In what state of the US does a prisoner have a right to suicide? [/QUOTE] Legally, they don’t. I know that. Nobody does. Everybody should. Anyway, this all started with a comment that executing people instead of imprisoning them for life is mercy. I found that to be a facile comment. Not only are we executing him, we’re being merciful by doing it! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002/20 "2008-07-29T01:49:39Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] A question for **Qadgop** : Is one of the additional things for prisoners on Death Row, compared what the general population gets, a suicide watch? [/QUOTE] No idea. My state doesn’t have the death penalty. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-oks-execution-of-army-death-row-prisoner/458002.md?page=2)