# Bush on evolution: "the verdict is still out" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2000, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111 "2000-10-31T18:15:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/121 "2000-11-03T02:26:59Z")
Scylla said: > [@](#): > > Shame on you! Bad DavidB, Bad! You know very well that I do change my mind when I am shown to be demonstrably wrong. I have very definite memories otherwise in several discussions. For example, you haven’t yet admitted that you’re wrong here. 😉 > [@](#): > > You accuse me of using an extreme example with American Atheists and Rob Sherman, but that is what you are doing by interpreting Bush’s comments along extrem creation science lines which he has not associated himself with. No, that is not what I am doing. I am using his own quotes and quotes from his spokespeople. I am also using his (and the GOP’s, in general) association with the “religious right” who continue to make this an issue. I am using the facts at my disposal. > [@](#): > > Most people with religious beleifs are not extremists. I never said they were. In fact, _you_ were the one using the extremists as if they represented all those who merely want evolution taught in school, remember? > [@](#): > > As an example, there was a 2nd grade teacher around here two years ago who took it upon herself to tell the students that there was no Santa Claus. > > It’s true isn’t it? > > The school shouldn’t be seen to perpetuate this religious myth, should it? > > Bullshit. The teacher was dead wrong. It’s none of her business to make such a statement. It’s a family matter, and none of her concern. OK. So what? Remember, it’s my position that such holidays shouldn’t be mentioned at all in school. Similarly, religious beliefs about creation shouldn’t be mentioned at all. I don’t want a science teacher to stand up and scream, “The Bible is false!” I just want him to present science. > [@](#): > > Evolution is tricky because it is in direct literal and obvious opposition to the first chapter of The Bible. Oh, give me a break. In that case, teaching that the Earth is round is “tricky,” too. Teaching that you shouldn’t go out and stone witches to death on a whim goes against it as well. The schools should not be held hostage to what somebody’s book says. They should teach science in an objective fashion. Period. > [@](#): > > It would be asinine to assume that you could teach this without having theological questions come up. How this should be dealt with is of prime concern both to people with faith, and those without. SOCAC is an issue on both sides. And if it comes up, the teacher should direct the student to talk to his parents/priest/whatever and explain that they are talking about science, not religion. > [@](#): > > A refusal to deal with this sensitively is official endorsement of atheism, and a violation of SOCAC. It’s a two way street. Bullshit. Leaving religion out of the classroom is not an endorsement of atheism any more than leaving the Purple Faeries out is an endorsment of a-faeryism. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/122 "2000-11-03T02:37:49Z")
DavidB said: [quote] \*\* And if it comes up, the teacher should direct the student to talk to his parents/priest/whatever and explain that they are talking about science, not religion. [quote] \*\* That certainly sounds reasonable. How would you say a teacher respond to a question allong these lines. “Excuse me, Mr. B? Brother Arduous says that the Bible says God made the earth in 7 days, and created all the animals as they are, and created man seperate and superior from the animals. Is that right, or did man really evolve from other animals? Who’s right, you or Brother Arduous?” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/123 "2000-11-03T02:39:11Z")
I really need to remember to turn that bold thing off. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/124 "2000-11-03T03:10:03Z")
> [@](#): > > “Excuse me, Mr. B? Brother Arduous says that the Bible says God made the earth in 7 days, and created all the animals as they are, and created man seperate and superior from the animals. Is that right, or did man really evolve from other animals? Who’s right, you or Brother Arduous?” **Shut up, kid!** Oh, wait, no, that’s not right. 😉 “There are some religions who do, in fact, believe this. However, this is a science class, and, as such, we can only deal with the scientific evidence. The scientific evidence leads us to the conclusion that I have explained. It is certainly possible to have religious beliefs that contradict what I have said, but you’ll have to discuss that with your parents and/or Brother Arduous.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/125 "2000-11-03T03:11:12Z")
Dangit! I just realized that I’m not taking my own moderatorial advice about keeping to the topic! I blame Scylla for leading me astray. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/126 "2000-11-03T03:19:26Z")
DavidB: That would also seem reasonable. Believe it or not, that’s all that I think is necessary and fair. I haver no idea why that was so difficult, but I’m sure I’ll end up taking the blame. 😉 Apologies for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/127 "2000-11-03T03:24:13Z")
I don’t know why it was so difficult either, but it definitely is indeed your fault. ---
**Author:** ![DrDoom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DrDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDoom)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/128 "2000-11-03T03:52:22Z")
Well, if he really said that, then he’s a genius. The events that created the Earth, like the internet, and it’s conditions to substain it are, well … incomprehensible (sp)… and he had the sense to say he didn’t know! Jeez, at least he didn’t say he created the Earth in 5 to 7 days … ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/129 "2000-11-03T03:57:15Z")
Well, it seemed like a simple tolerance issue that should be able to be clarified in a post or two, but it didn’t work out that way. Hence the apology. Back to the O.P. I think we have established that Bush would like to see creationism taught alongside evolution in the schools, and perhaps “other theories” as well. I think we’ve also established that this is not a good thing. What we’ve failed to establish is what “creationism” theory Bush is talking about, and how it should be taught. What we’ve also failed to establish is how Bush intends to act on this beleif if elected President. He seems to be squarely on the side of state’s self-determination on this issue. In general, less Federal interference is usually a good thing. In the particular of teaching Creationism this is clearly unconstitutional. Gore on the other hand comes down more in favor of Federal interference with schools, and their’s the possibility that an issue like this could be used to mandate more Federal control of school curriculums in general. In reality, I would think that both candidates would tend to stay pretty clear of actually doing anything on this issue as it would mess up reelection chances. The real issue as far as this is concerned relates to the potential for new Supreme court justices in the next 4-8 years. One might guess that Bush would tend to nominate candidates that were softer on SOCAC then Gore do to his seemingly sincere religious affiliations. What is the likelihood that the next President will make lasting and sweeping changes to the makeup of the Supreme court? ---
**Author:** ![DrDoom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DrDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDoom)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/130 "2000-11-03T04:13:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dignan \* > \*\*Here is what he said: > > “I think that, for example, on the issue of evolution, the verdict is still out on how God created the earth,” > > How could anyone other than the religious right vote for this guy if he doesn’t seem to believe in evolution\*\* Appears he said he doesn’t have the knowledge to answer this question … how evolution actually ocurred? He could have, however, said he helped in the creation of the Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/131 "2000-11-03T06:34:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > > **What we’ve failed to establish is what “creationism” theory Bush is talking about, and how it should be taught.** You can’t be serious. What do you think he’s talking about - the Mayan Creation Myth? * * * Yer pal, [Satan](http://www.members.tripod.com/jmspoofe/sdmb/satan.jpg) \*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Six months, three weeks, four days, 4 hours, 35 minutes and 19 seconds. 8327 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,040.95. Extra time with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 21 hours, 55 minutes. **David B used me as a cite!** \* ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/132 "2000-11-03T06:56:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satan \* > What do you think he’s talking about - the Mayan Creation Myth? Yep. Dubya’s down wit’ Hunahpu and Xbalanke. > [@](#): > > In said Katun > they left their land and their home: > Nonoualcan. > There were the Tutul Xiu, > to the west of Zuina. > The land from whence they came: > Tulapa Cicunauhtlan. Better get used to it…we’ll all reading from the Chilam Balam of Mani in a Bush presidency, and it’s a good thing, too! ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/133 "2000-11-03T13:37:29Z")
Scylla said: > [@](#): > > I think we have established that Bush would like to see creationism taught alongside evolution in the schools, and perhaps “other theories” as well. I think we’ve also established that this is not a good thing. No argument there. (Well, not from _me_, anyway.) > [@](#): > > What we’ve failed to establish is what “creationism” theory Bush is talking about, and how it should be taught. C’mon. This is just silly. > [@](#): > > Gore on the other hand comes down more in favor of Federal interference with schools, and their’s the possibility that an issue like this could be used to mandate more Federal control of school curriculums in general. I don’t think so. Unless you count enforcement of court decisions as “federal control.” > [@](#): > > In reality, I would think that both candidates would tend to stay pretty clear of actually doing anything on this issue as it would mess up reelection chances. Would it? I don’t think so. Now, I’m not talking about supporting a change to the Constitution that allows for the teaching of creationism – I don’t think Bush would do something like that (nor would it matter, as the pres. is not needed for an Amendment). I’m talking more along the lines of appointing both Supreme Court and other lower-court justices. I’m talking about using the office as a soapbox to say such things are okay. Stuff like that. I’m talking about doing more to turn over issues of schools to “local control” with a wink and a nod, knowing what will happen with creationism in certain areas. > [@](#): > > What is the likelihood that the next President will make lasting and sweeping changes to the makeup of the Supreme court? We’ve gone over this in some detail in other threads. I think the possibility is definitely there. Obviously, we can’t know for sure who might die or be forced to retire, but some of these folks are getting mighty old. One (liberal) has been in a recent fight with cancer. And some of these decisions have only been made by a vote or two. So, I think the next president is likely to affect the way the Court goes for the next decade or two, at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/134 "2000-11-03T14:22:47Z")
It’s a valid question. Does Dubya insist on a hardcore fundamentalist “Earth and creatures in 7 days 7000 years ago the fossils are a lie” sort of approach, does he advocate a “evolution directed by God with intelligent design aspects,” or does he advocate a kind of “God as the initial cause, but don’t interpret the Bible literally” kind of approach? Does the form of creationism Bush wishes to teach reconciliatory with evolution or in direct opposition. Is he looking to generate a synthesis, or looking to present to diametrically opposed ideas with “equal” cedibility and allow the children to interpret for themselves? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/135 "2000-11-03T14:30:45Z")
Scylla said: > [@](#): > > It’s a valid question. Does Dubya insist on a hardcore fundamentalist “Earth and creatures in 7 days 7000 years ago the fossils are a lie” sort of approach, does he advocate a “evolution directed by God with intelligent design aspects,” or does he advocate a kind of “God as the initial cause, but don’t interpret the Bible literally” kind of approach? None of which make any difference. He wants a religious viewpoint taught in science class. Old earth/young earth/I don’t care – it’s still religion. ---
**Author:** ![Palm\_Cove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Palm\_Cove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palm_Cove)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/136 "2000-11-03T14:45:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*It’s a valid question. Does Dubya insist on a hardcore fundamentalist “Earth and creatures in 7 days 7000 years ago the fossils are a lie” sort of approach, does he advocate a “evolution directed by God with intelligent design aspects,” or does he advocate a kind of “God as the initial cause, but don’t interpret the Bible literally” kind of approach? > > \*\* Choose your poison? If you are going to teach any of this crap you would have to teach all its variations, so as to not upset any believers. A candidate for the worlds’ most powerful position, should have at least some general knowledge. That there is a candidate in the 21st century who would even contemplate the teaching of creatioism as science is mind-boggling. Is there something wrong with the electoral system if Bush and Gore are the best presidential candidates that can be found? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/137 "2000-11-03T14:47:09Z")
I think the degree of wrongness in what he is proposing (if he’s actually proposing anything, instead of just stating an opinion,) is very germaine. Much less valid distinctions were drawn by Bill CLinton when he had an unpaid White House intern come to his office to fellate him, yet claimed he never had sex with her. Or, all hose times he “never inhaled.” The degree of wrongdoing in Whitewater with the Clintons, and in campaign funds with Gore is also an issue. Why is this issue a total indictment of Bush without regard to degree? We’re trying to measure a wrong which “might” happen. So far Bush hasn’t done anything more than state an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/138 "2000-11-03T14:56:57Z")
Because the issue is a black and white one. Either he is in favor of violating SOCAS or he is against it. He has already indicated that he is in favor of it. So I don’t really care if he is an old earth creationist or a young earth creationist or a Native American creationist. He wants creationism – religion – taught next to evolution in the public schools. That’s what matters. ---
**Author:** ![Palm\_Cove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Palm\_Cove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palm_Cove)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/139 "2000-11-03T14:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\* > Why is this issue a total indictment of Bush without regard to degree? > > \*\* Cos it shows he is really dumb!!. Creationism has no place in the science classroom. Not creationism type A, not creationism type B, not creationism type C etc. None of the flavours has a scrap of evidence to support it. On this issue Bush displays his ignorance for the world to see. It makes a lot of us very nervous indeed. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111/140 "2000-11-03T15:02:05Z")
A minor point in the context of the argument, but what exactly would be “taught” anyway? To educate kids in evolution is a lengthy topic and the science can go as far as you wish. To teach creation is… what? 5 minutes? “Er God created everything and he did it in seven days and it all happened about 7000 years ago. And… er… that’s it. Any questions?” Hardly good examinable material. regards, pan ps speaking as a Brit I was somewhat flabberghasted that this is still even an issue over there. Y’all are serious? Your candidates consider creationism delicate enough to skirt around? I think that even our fence-sitting politicians would have laughed out loud at _this_ question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-on-evolution-the-verdict-is-still-out/39111.md?page=8)