# Bush ordered fake letter linking Iraq to 9/11- When is lying a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989 "2008-08-06T02:39:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/81 "2008-08-07T12:12:37Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Considering that it has been invoked by presidents such as Jefferson, Lincoln and FDR, I doubt very much that it will “vanish into the closet”. Nor will (gasp!) signing statements. Now, if you meant that Bush’s particular interpretation of the unitary executive, you will probably be right. [/QUOTE] Instead of splitting hairs and trying to find distinctions without a difference, how about we just go with the obvious “The President shall act as Emperor in all cases where The President is a member of the party known as the Republican”? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/82 "2008-08-07T12:58:01Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Of course, this means President for Life Obama has the authority to round up all their guns. And order Eagle Scouts into gay marriages. [/QUOTE] Not straight away. He has to send a minion out for a copy of the Constitution and the US Code and write ‘none of this applies to me’ across them for it to be perfectly legal. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/83 "2008-08-07T13:28:44Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] So what you’re saying is that there are places where, say, twenty year penalties are specified for, say, squashing a bug and not filling out the proper forms in triplicate, but no one thought to mention penalties for forging foreign documents to bolster political support for a war? Or to suppressing intelligence in order to get political support to get that war in the first place? [/QUOTE] Yep. These are the titles of the Code: TITLE 1 GENERAL PROVISIONS TITLE 2 THE CONGRESS TITLE 3 THE PRESIDENT TITLE 4 FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES TITLE 5 GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION AND EMPLOYEES TITLE 5A GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION AND EMPLOYEES (APPENDIX) TITLE 6 SURETY BONDS [REPEALED] TITLE 7 AGRICULTURE TITLE 8 ALIENS AND NATIONALITY TITLE 9 ARBITRATION TITLE 10 ARMED FORCES TITLE 10A ARMED FORCES (APPENDIX) TITLE 11 BANKRUPTCY TITLE 11A BANKRUPTCY (APPENDIX) TITLE 12 BANKS AND BANKING TITLE 13 CENSUS TITLE 14 COAST GUARD TITLE 15 COMMERCE AND TRADE TITLE 16 CONSERVATION TITLE 17 COPYRIGHTS TITLE 18 CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE TITLE 18A CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (APPENDIX) TITLE 19 CUSTOMS DUTIES TITLE 20 EDUCATION TITLE 21 FOOD AND DRUGS TITLE 22 FOREIGN RELATIONS AND INTERCOURSE TITLE 23 HIGHWAYS TITLE 24 HOSPITALS AND ASYLUMS TITLE 25 INDIANS TITLE 26 INTERNAL REVENUE CODE TITLE 26A INTERNAL REVENUE CODE (APPENDIX) TITLE 27 INTOXICATING LIQUORS TITLE 28 JUDICIARY AND JUDICIAL PROCEDURE TITLE 28A JUDICIARY AND JUDICIAL PROCEDURE (APPENDIX) TITLE 29 LABOR TITLE 30 MINERAL LANDS AND MINING TITLE 31 MONEY AND FINANCE TITLE 32 NATIONAL GUARD TITLE 33 NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS TITLE 34 NAVY [REPEALED] TITLE 35 PATENTS TITLE 36 PATRIOTIC AND NATIONAL OBSERVANCES, CEREMONIES, AND ORGANIZATIONS TITLE 37 PAY AND ALLOWANCES OF THE UNIFORMED SERVICES TITLE 38 VETERANS’ BENEFITS TITLE 38A VETERANS’ BENEFITS (APPENDIX) TITLE 39 POSTAL SERVICE TITLE 40 PUBLIC BUILDINGS, PROPERTY, AND WORKS TITLE 40A PUBLIC BUILDINGS, PROPERTY, AND WORKS (APPENDIX) TITLE 41 PUBLIC CONTRACTS TITLE 42 THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE TITLE 43 PUBLIC LANDS TITLE 44 PUBLIC PRINTING AND DOCUMENTS TITLE 45 RAILROADS TITLE 46 SHIPPING TITLE 46A SHIPPING (APPENDIX) TITLE 47 TELEGRAPHS, TELEPHONES, AND RADIOTELEGRAPHS TITLE 48 TERRITORIES AND INSULAR POSSESSIONS TITLE 49 TRANSPORTATION TITLE 50 WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE TITLE 50A WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE (APPENDIX) It’s a bis thing - each individual title may have hundreds of sections and paragraphs. And there are not civil or criminal penalties associated with every one of these - in fact, most of these carry no penalty from what I’ve seen, but as I’m not a lawyer, I’m not an expert on such. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/84 "2008-08-07T13:32:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I’d prefer to see him hanging from a lamppost on Pennsylvania Avenue. Esthetic differences, I guess. [/QUOTE] Impaling him on the Washington Monument would be nice. Y’know, like spindling a receipt. We could get a pretty tall stack of scumbags on that obelisk. One vulture to another: “Politicians on a stick?!” Presidents seem to have immunity unless you go after them _while_ they’re in office. Sure, they forced Nixon out but had that information come to light the day after he completed his term? Ancient history! I have to think that those who prosecute such things are looking to make political hay, i.e. oust the guy and his cronies, not get justice for John Q. Public. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/85 "2008-08-07T13:39:34Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Not straight away. He has to send a minion out for a copy of the Constitution and the US Code and write ‘none of this applies to me’ across them for it to be perfectly legal. [/QUOTE] Can’t he just use Bush’s copy? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/86 "2008-08-07T13:41:37Z")
[QUOTE=Grumman] Can’t he just use Bush’s copy? [/QUOTE] He could but he’s probably prefer not to after all that gratuitous ass-wiping. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/87 "2008-08-07T15:08:14Z")
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63] Presidents seem to have immunity unless you go after them _while_ they’re in office. Sure, they forced Nixon out but had that information come to light the day after he completed his term? Ancient history! [/QUOTE] We’ve covered this more than once. If Presidents were immune except while in office, Ford would not have bothered pardoning Nixon. Presidents are not immune. The maximum penalty Congress may impose on a President is removal from office. The removed President may then be prosecuted under criminal law, or, as in the case of Clinton, be subject to civil penalties (such as fines or disbarment) as well. Of course, this kind of thing when applied to Bush tends to founder on the hard rocks of lack of evidence of any civil or criminal wrong doing. So we hear mostly calls for more investigations. Only five more months of this to go. Unless McCain wins, in which case no doubt we will be investigating the Bush administration until the Republicans regain control of Congress. It’s not like Pelosi and company can achieve much of anything else. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/88 "2008-08-07T15:28:57Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Not straight away. He has to send a minion out for a copy of the Constitution and the US Code and write ‘none of this applies to me’ across them for it to be perfectly legal. [/QUOTE] Or he could employ another tactic, one of my personal favorites from the Bush files: Get the Justice Department to advise you to do something illegal. Then, when someone says you should be prosecuted, the Justice Department can say that it would be unethical for them to prosecute you for doing something they advised you to do. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/89 "2008-08-07T15:38:26Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Or he could employ another tactic, one of my personal favorites from the Bush files: Get the Justice Department to advise you to do something illegal. Then, when someone says you should be prosecuted, the Justice Department can say that it would be unethical for them to prosecute you for doing something they advised you to do. [/QUOTE] Sadly the Democrats are too spineless. I think 8 relentless years of gloves-off, what goes around comes around, is what the Republicans need to make a two-party system work. I’d like, but don’t expect them to launch a Ken Starr intense look under every available rock and prosecutions by the score up to and including Bush. If Clinton can be got at for lying about something trivial under oath then by god these bastards can be investigated for their crimes. If Susskind’s allegations have any weight then they should be investigated and if it turns out he’s made it all up and doesn’t have tapes then his ass needs a good kicking too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/90 "2008-08-07T15:54:06Z")
[Update:](http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Suskind_Congress_wants_testimony_about_Iraq_0806.html) > [@](#): > > Author Ron Suskind says his sources are under “enormous pressure” to change their stories after revealing to him that the Bush administration had ordered the CIA to forge a letter from the head of Iraqi intelligence connecting Iraq to the 9/11 hijackers. > > On Tuesday, former CIA official Robert Richer, who is one of Suskind’s sources, sent a statement to news outlets in which he wrote, “I never received direction from George Tenet or anyone else in my chain of command to fabricate a document from Habbush as outlined in Mr. Suskind’s book.” > > Richer’s statement also quoted Suskind’s other source, former CIA officer John Maguire, as saying, “I have no knowledge to the origins of the letter.” > > Suskind told NBC’s Meredith Vieira on Wednesday morning, “It’s interesting. … Rob Richer talked to me, and actually other reporters too, yesterday morning. He was fine, he’d gotten the book Monday night, read it. And then something happened yesterday afternoon.” > > “It’s one of these instances where you’ve got a few people whose testimony could mean the impeachment, ostensibly, of the president,” Suskind explained. “It’s enormous pressure on both men.” > > \ > > Suskind insisted to Vieira, however, that “I’m actually not concerned,” telling her, “I’ve spent a lot of time with them. Their interviews are taped. … They talked to me at length, hour after hour … and all of that is on the record.” ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/91 "2008-08-07T17:31:31Z")
> [@Suskind](#): > > Suskind insisted to Vieira, however, that “I’m actually not concerned,” telling her, "I’ve spent a lot of time with them. Their interviews are taped. … They talked to me at length, hour after hour … and all of that is on the record Alright, let’s hear the tapes. If it was on the record, there should be no problem releasing them. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/92 "2008-08-07T17:36:40Z")
I think he’s waiting for the Congressional supoena. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/93 "2008-08-07T18:21:57Z")
[QUOTE=sqweels] The irony is that all of this goes back to the “Gore is a liar” meme that won Bush the election in 2000. [/QUOTE] Everybody seems to have their own pet reason why Bush won the 2000 election. To me, it’s pretty clear that there were 50,456,002 reasons he won. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/94 "2008-08-07T18:30:36Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Everybody seems to have their own pet reason why Bush won the 2000 election. To me, it’s pretty clear that there were 50,456,002 reasons he won. [/QUOTE] I thought there were five. And they were all appointed by Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/95 "2008-08-07T18:49:45Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Everybody seems to have their own pet reason why Bush won the 2000 election. To me, it’s pretty clear that there were 50,456,002 reasons he won. [/QUOTE] And 50,996,116 why he lost and Gore won. I’m going with five people in black robes as well. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/96 "2008-08-07T19:00:24Z")
Bush won the electoral vote. You can say it was because of the scotus but that’s still through legal process. Saying Gore won just because he got more of the popular vote is wrong and immature. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/97 "2008-08-07T19:07:20Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Bush won the electoral vote. You can say it was because of the scotus but that’s still through legal process. Saying Gore won just because he got more of the popular vote is wrong and immature. [/QUOTE] I understand the electoral vote just fine. You, however, cited the popular vote so I cited the same stat back at you. Seemed fair to me. And if you don’t like black robed people calling the election then my vote goes to Ralph Nader. I’d bet all the money I have in the bank if he had not split the ticket Gore would have clearly won. Nothing illegal or wrong there…just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/98 "2008-08-07T19:10:24Z")
Oh, fer Pete’s sake, this thread is not about the 2000 election. Let it go. It’s 2008, and they’re not going to go back and change it now. History may or may not vindicate us. This is about Ron Suskind’s book and Bush’s alleged lies connecting Iraq with 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/99 "2008-08-07T19:10:59Z")
Each of those individuals had their own personal reason to vote for him, and because they voted the way they did, he won. And you didn’t just cite the same stat back. You said Bush lost and Gore won. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989/100 "2008-08-07T19:30:27Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Each of those individuals had their own personal reason to vote for him, and because they voted the way they did, he won. And you didn’t just cite the same stat back. You said Bush lost and Gore won. [/QUOTE] You said, “…there were 50,456,002 reasons he won.” You did not cite the electoral vote for why he won but the popular vote. If that is the measure, which you put out, then Bush lost and Gore won with more of the popular vote. Left unsaid was the vagaries of how the electoral college works and the reasoning of five judges as the ultimate answer to why Bush won. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-ordered-fake-letter-linking-iraq-to-9-11-when-is-lying-a-crime/458989.md?page=6)