# Bush orders flag at half staff for tsunami victims. WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 2, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617 "2005-01-02T02:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/21 "2005-01-02T02:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > So, we have possibly the world’s greatest tragedy happening, and you think it’s cliched to express sympathy in a formal way such as lowering the flag? There is now way this is the world’s greatest tregedy. > [@](#): > > 1931 > July–Aug., China: flood along Yangtze River left _ **3.7 million people dead** _ from disease, starvation, or drowning. > **[Floods, Avalanches, and Tidal Waves](https://www.infoplease.com/world/disasters/natural/floods-avalanches-and-tidal-waves)** > > The following table lists the worst floods, landslides, avalanches, tidal waves and mudslides in history. 1228 Holland: 100,000 people reputedly drowned by sea flood in Friesland. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/22 "2005-01-02T02:59:59Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Ahem. Might I point Mssr.Assmonkey to another cite? > > From [here:](http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html) > > **Sec. 10. — Modification of rules and customs by President** > Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation Holy crap! I make a post, and **Brutus** not only agrees with my position but provides the cite! Somebody resurrect that Signs of the Apocalypse thread!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/23 "2005-01-02T03:01:11Z")
It’s too bad we can’t somehow recover all the money spent on the bureaucracy that made these arbitrary rules about what to do with a colored cloth and give that to the victims of disasters. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/24 "2005-01-02T03:03:44Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Holy crap! I make a post, and **Brutus** not only agrees with my position but provides the cite! Somebody resurrect that Signs of the Apocalypse thread!! 😃 Maybe that was the point? Maybe **Chefguy** is merely trying to bring people on both sides of the aisle (and those crawling on the ceiling) together for one brief moment? That’s it, right, **Chefguy** [sup]1[/sup]? [sup]1[/sup] Take the out man, take it! (On an unrelated note, thanks for the retraction, **Bricker** ) ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/25 "2005-01-02T03:03:40Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > It’s too bad we can’t somehow recover **all the money spent on the bureaucracy** that made these arbitrary rules about what to do with a colored cloth and give that to the victims of disasters. Bolding mine. How much money would that be, Revtim? ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/26 "2005-01-02T03:04:26Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > There is now way this is the world’s greatest tregedy. Which is why I added _possibly_. 😉 Thanks for the info though **Kel** ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/27 "2005-01-02T03:07:41Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Holy crap! I make a post, and **Brutus** not only agrees with my position but provides the cite! Somebody resurrect that Signs of the Apocalypse thread!! 😃 Heh, I dunno. The OP is just so damned out there, that I should darned well hope that there will be little dissent among the ranks. (Next thread in the Franklin Mint **Chefguy** collection: SecState Powell eats bagel w/cream cheese for breakfast. WHAT THE FUCK!?!!) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/28 "2005-01-02T03:09:08Z")
> [@Bruce\_Daddy](#): > > Bolding mine. How much money would that be, Revtim? If it’s only a dime, I think it would still be better spent giving a victim a gumball than making arbitary rules about a colored cloth. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/29 "2005-01-02T03:22:53Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > If it’s only a dime, I think it would still be better spent giving a victim a gumball than making arbitary rules about a colored cloth. How very heroic of you. If ‘missing the point’ was a sport, you would be king, champion and hall of famer rolled into one. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/30 "2005-01-02T03:25:04Z")
Psst. Chefguy. You’re supposed to pit Bush when he does something _wrong._ I should think that there are enough of such opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/31 "2005-01-02T03:35:50Z")
> [@Bruce\_Daddy](#): > > How very heroic of you… Well, maybe someday I’ll be as heroic as the folks who make arbitrary rules about colored cloths. It’s a dream to shoot for, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/32 "2005-01-02T03:39:03Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Well, maybe someday I’ll be as heroic as the folks who make arbitrary rules about colored cloths. It’s a dream to shoot for, I guess. Should forging paper money be illegal? I mean, it’s just colored cloth, right? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/33 "2005-01-02T03:42:31Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Should forging paper money be illegal? I mean, it’s just colored cloth, right? Forging money damages the economy. If we had no rules about when flags could should be raised or at half mast or placed inside when it rains, is there corresponding damage to anything? ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/34 "2005-01-02T03:57:59Z")
Just to chime in my 2 cents, I’m with Chefguy. I think it’s inappropriate to order the flags lowered too. My opinion has zero to do with politics, global insensitivity or BBQ Pit partisanship. I just think it sets a bad precedent. There are appropriate gestures for this sort of tragedy – shipments of aid, public statements of support and PR-generating visits by heads of state – all of which I heartily endorse. Lowering of flags, IMO, is not one of them. It would be like (…I’m totally making this up, so go with me with this one…) some guy who was not in the military getting a military funeral in Arlington Cemetary. I don’t care if the guy loved the military, spent much of each year organizing the veteran’s day parade in his hometown, and shipped off thousands of boxes of cookies to service persons overseas. It’s just not the way to honor him. Name a park for him, erect a glorious tombstone or send his kids through college, but no military funeral. I visit the BBQ Pit infrequently, so I probably will not be around much to defend this post, side by side with Chefguy, with our backs against the wall, six-shooters in each hand, bandellaros across our chests and knives in our teeth. But I thought I should express my opinion on the subject, especially since it seems to be such an unpopular one. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/35 "2005-01-02T04:02:54Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Forging money damages the economy. If we had no rules about when flags could should be raised or at half mast or placed inside when it rains, is there corresponding damage to anything? Yes. Money represents something abstract–we all recognize it as having value and we use it to facilitate the economy. The flag represents something even more abstract–the ideals and the people who’ve made this country what it is. No, damaging the flag doesn’t cause financial harm, and it doesn’t cause any bodily injury. But because people _do_ recognize it as a symbol, we, by convention, follow a set of rules designed to show respect for that which it is a symbol of. Because the damage done by not respecting it is as abstract and intangible as what it represents (i.e., it’s not financial or bodily damage), there are no enforced penalties for not following the rules. And I certainly don’t begrudge the time and money spent specifying those rules, because symbols are important (as the cash in your wallet illustrates). ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/36 "2005-01-02T04:03:57Z")
**stuguy** , the way you explained your position is a hell of a lot different then simply saying “What the fuck was he thinking?” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/37 "2005-01-02T04:04:01Z")
> [@stuyguy](#): > > Just to chime in my 2 cents, I’m with Chefguy. I think it’s inappropriate to order the flags lowered too. My opinion has zero to do with politics, global insensitivity or BBQ Pit partisanship. I just think it sets a bad precedent. > > There are appropriate gestures for this sort of tragedy – shipments of aid, public statements of support and PR-generating visits by heads of state – all of which I heartily endorse. Lowering of flags, IMO, is not one of them. > > It would be like (…I’m totally making this up, so go with me with this one…) some guy who was not in the military getting a military funeral in Arlington Cemetary. I don’t care if the guy loved the military, spent much of each year organizing the veteran’s day parade in his hometown, and shipped off thousands of boxes of cookies to service persons overseas. It’s just not the way to honor him. Name a park for him, erect a glorious tombstone or send his kids through college, but no military funeral. > > I visit the BBQ Pit infrequently, so I probably will not be around much to defend this post, side by side with Chefguy, with our backs against the wall, six-shooters in each hand, bandellaros across our chests and knives in our teeth. But I thought I should express my opinion on the subject, especially since it seems to be such an unpopular one. It symbolizes mourning, on a community – national – scale. That’s the **point**. As for the other, Presidents who so wish (or whose families so wish) are entitled to burial in Arlington Cemetery, and as a special mark of esteem, Field Marshal Sir John Dill, senior British military liaison to the U.S. during World War II, who died in office in Washington towards the end of the war, was granted burial there as well. (But, to reiterate, I like the idea of liberals and conservatives alike defending the President’s right to decide to honor the overseas dead in this way – it goes on my list of Signs of Hope.) ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/38 "2005-01-02T04:09:35Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Yes. > > Money represents something abstract–we all recognize it as having value and we use it to facilitate the economy. The flag represents something even more abstract–the ideals and the people who’ve made this country what it is. Man, anyone else hear Battle Hymn of the Republic playing while reading this? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/39 "2005-01-02T04:11:15Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > SecState Powell eats bagel w/cream cheese for breakfast. WHAT THE FUCK!?!!) Brown bread covered up with some white filling from the top? Yeah, I think we all know where this is going. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617/40 "2005-01-02T04:20:40Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Money represents something abstract–we all recognize it as having value and we use it to facilitate the economy. The flag represents something even more abstract–the ideals and the people who’ve made this country what it is. No, damaging the flag doesn’t cause financial harm, and it doesn’t cause any bodily injury. But because people _do_ recognize it as a symbol, we, by convention, follow a set of rules designed to show respect for that which it is a symbol of. Because the damage done by not respecting it is as abstract and intangible as what it represents (i.e., it’s not financial or bodily damage), there are no enforced penalties for not following the rules. And I certainly don’t begrudge the time and money spent specifying those rules, because symbols are important (as the cash in your wallet illustrates). But the abstract damage of disrespecting a flag is completely unnecessary. It’s learned without a basis in reality. If people simply were not taught that placing a flag indoors when it rained was wrong, there would be no damage, by definition. It would make just as much sense, say, as a rule that looking at the flag with one eye closed is to be considered disrespectful. It would be far better to perform acts that demonstrate our values, than random arbitrary rules that symbolize our values. Isn’t it better to actually to something to help people achieve equality, than to pledge allegiance to a flag because one of the values it symbolizes is equality? Isn’t it better to buy armor for our soldiers who defend our freedom, than to pay bureaucrats to write rules about when a flag should or should not be at half-mast? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-orders-flag-at-half-staff-for-tsunami-victims-wtf/282617.md?page=3)