# Bush Pardon list
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 25, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435 "2008-11-25T16:14:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/1 "2008-11-25T16:14:48Z")
]Bush has started issuing his exit pardons. [Here’s the list of 14 pardons and two commutations](http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081124/D94LJF9G0.html). I confess, I don’t know who any of these people are. On the surface it doesn’t look great. It includes several drug dealers. Not that I think there’s anything wrong with pardoning drug dealers, but I’m surprised to see Bush do it. The list also includes thieves, embezzlers, some kind of hazardous waste offense, a wildlife offense and some other fairly minor looking offenses. No murderers on the list (some thought Bush might pardon those border guards who murdered an immigrant and then tried to cover it up – those guys are heroes to the Freeper types). There is also speculation that Bush may preemptively pardon the Gitmo interrogators so that they can’t be tried for torture
Maybe we’ll see some bombshells when we get closer to the transition. I think some of the most controversial exit pardons tend to come right in the last couple of days.
Anyway, as much as I’d like to cluck and wax indignant about some of the names on this list, I have to admit I don’t know anything about them and there may be stories behind some of these decisions which could make them perfectly reasonable.
So what do people think about the list so far? Any further information about the names would also be highly appreciated.
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### Author:  [@Kyrie\_Eleison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyrie_Eleison)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/2 "2008-11-25T16:42:10Z")
I was curious about the hazardous waste thing, so I googled it. [Link](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6130385.html) for your convenience. Seems he was a truck driver who was convicted of hauling creosote on behalf of his employer. He served his sentence long ago, and the pardon just wipes his conviction off the books. It doesn’t seem like there’s anything objectionable about that one.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/3 "2008-11-25T16:44:10Z")
Nothing on torture or wiretapping yet? What is ‘normal’ for Presidents to pardon when they leave office? Do most Presidents grant pardons as they leave?
-XT
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/4 "2008-11-25T16:59:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#):
>
> Nothing on torture or wiretapping yet? What is ‘normal’ for Presidents to pardon when they leave office? Do most Presidents grant pardons as they leave?
>
> -XT
It’s become somewhat SOP for Presidents to issue a round of pardons on their way out the door. Clinton issued his most controversial pardons (e.g. Marc Rich) on his last day of office. GHWB issued his Iran-Contra pardons on the Christmas Eve before he left. Ronald Reagan, If I recall correctly, pardoned one person on his way out the door – George Steinbrenner (for having made illegal contributions to Nixon).
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### Author:  [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/5 "2008-11-25T16:59:57Z")
Can a President pardon himself? The Vice President?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/6 "2008-11-25T17:06:14Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#):
>
> Can a President pardon himself? The Vice President?
This question has never been adjudicated, but the Constitution basically says the President’s pardon power is absolute “…except in cases of impeachment.”
The majority legal theory is that the POTUS can pardon himself as long as he does it before he’s impeached, but it would probably take a SCOTUS review to settle the question once and for all.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/7 "2008-11-25T17:09:52Z")
Most of the pardons are like that…they’re pardons of people who have already served their sentences. Obie Helton, for instance, had been convicted in 1983 and sentenced to 2 years probation. Andrew Harley had been court martialed in 1985. Ronald Mohrhoff had been convicted in 1984 and sentenced to one year in prison and 2 years probation.
Jimmy Harris, whose sentence was commuted, was a Detroit policeman who protected drug dealers. He’s seriously ill with diabetes.
The only “notable” pardon there was the commutation of John E. Forte, who was serving a 14 year sentence for aiding and abetting possession of cocaine with intent to distribute. Forte is a Grammy award winning rapper.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/8 "2008-11-25T17:31:23Z")
G-Dub in the hizzle!
Who knew he was a rap fan?
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/9 "2008-11-25T18:40:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> ] No murderers on the list (some thought Bush might pardon those border guards who murdered an immigrant and then tried to cover it up – those guys are heroes to the Freeper types).
Are you referring to Ignacio Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean? They wounded a Mexican drug smuggler (Osvaldo Aldrete Davila) who admitted smuggling drugs and was later convicted of a 2nd attempt.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/10 "2008-11-25T18:43:50Z")
If I were President, I’d issue a blanket pardon on all non-violent drug offenders immediately after getting in for my second term, and continue to pardon every non-violent drug offender convicted after that.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/11 "2008-11-25T18:45:09Z")
Which is probably a fairly good indication of why you would never be president. 🙂
-XT
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/12 "2008-11-25T18:46:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> The majority legal theory is that the POTUS can pardon himself as long as he does it before he’s impeached, but it would probably take a SCOTUS review to settle the question once and for all.
In effect, a sufficiently corrupt President seems to be immune from ANY legal consequences for his actions. He can literally get away with murder. All he has to do is scribble a pardon on a cocktail napkin, which is always going to be quicker than the time it takes for Congress voting to impeach.
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### Author:  [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/13 "2008-11-25T18:48:34Z")
in re pardoning the gitmo guys, can you pre-emptively pardon people who have not yet been charged with any crimes? I would guess not but I’m just guessing
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/14 "2008-11-25T18:54:05Z")
> [@maladroit](#):
>
> in re pardoning the gitmo guys, can you pre-emptively pardon people who have not yet been charged with any crimes? I would guess not but I’m just guessing
Worked for Nixon.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/15 "2008-11-25T19:05:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Are you referring to Ignacio Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean? They wounded a Mexican drug smuggler (Osvaldo Aldrete Davila) who admitted smuggling drugs and was later convicted of a 2nd attempt.
Did they only wound him? Whatever. The fact that their victim was a drug smuggler is completely irrelevant, of course.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/16 "2008-11-25T19:08:07Z")
> [@maladroit](#):
>
> in re pardoning the gitmo guys, can you pre-emptively pardon people who have not yet been charged with any crimes? I would guess not but I’m just guessing
Ford pardoned Nixon. I’m not sure if everyone GHWB pardoned had been charged, but I know that they hadn’t been convicted yet.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/17 "2008-11-25T19:10:53Z")
> [@Blalron](#):
>
> In effect, a sufficiently corrupt President seems to be immune from ANY legal consequences for his actions. He can literally get away with murder. All he has to do is scribble a pardon on a cocktail napkin, which is always going to be quicker than the time it takes for Congress voting to impeach.
That’s the theory. He could still be subsequently impeached and removed from power, of course, and Congress might be able to find away to impose other sanctions, but from what I’ve read, the Constitution does seem to allow a POTUS to theoretically pardon himself for murder as long as he moves quickly enough.
I think it raises another question. Could a VP kill the sitting POTUS, then pardon himself as soon as he gets sworn in?
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/18 "2008-11-25T19:15:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> That’s the theory. He could still be subsequently impeached and removed from power, of course, and Congress might be able to find away to impose other sanctions, but from what I’ve read, the Constitution does seem to allow a POTUS to theoretically pardon himself for murder as long as he moves quickly enough.
>
> I think it raises another question. Could a VP kill the sitting POTUS, then pardon himself as soon as he gets sworn in?
Typically murder is not a federal crime.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/19 "2008-11-25T19:17:00Z")
> [@maladroit](#):
>
> in re pardoning the gitmo guys, can you pre-emptively pardon people who have not yet been charged with any crimes? I would guess not but I’m just guessing
Yes, he can. What the President cannot do is pardon crimes that haven’t happened yet.
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/20 "2008-11-25T19:23:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Typically murder is not a federal crime.
Isn’t the District of Columbia federal territory?
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