# Bush Pardon list
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 25, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435 "2008-11-25T16:14:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/21 "2008-11-25T19:35:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#):
>
> Which is probably a fairly good indication of why you would never be president. 🙂
>
> -XT
I doubt it’s even at the top of the list of reasons.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/22 "2008-11-25T19:39:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Typically murder is not a federal crime.
Is killing the president a federal crime?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/23 "2008-11-25T19:39:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Typically murder is not a federal crime.
Assassinating the President is.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/24 "2008-11-25T19:47:49Z")
[Relevant federal statute](http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C84.txt).
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/25 "2008-11-26T02:26:19Z")
If it happened, though, I’m sure some state would find standing for murder charges-- Perhaps the home state of the President or VP? If the same act is both a state and federal offense, does double jeopardy apply?
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/26 "2008-11-26T06:38:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> If the same act is both a state and federal offense, does double jeopardy apply?
No. The state and federal governments are “seperate sovereigns”, so there’s no double jeopardy there. See, for instance, Michael Vick’s continuing legal woes.
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### Author:  [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/27 "2008-11-26T07:05:40Z")
About the prospective preemptive pardons mentioned in the OP… Preemptive pardons seem very counterintuitive to me. It’s like applying his current presidential power into possible future conviction scenarios. I thought the president’s powers would be null after his/her term runs out. How is something like that justified?
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/28 "2008-11-26T15:54:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> Did they only wound him? Whatever. The fact that their victim was a drug smuggler is completely irrelevant, of course.
they were chasing an armed drug smuggler, so yes its relevant.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/29 "2008-11-26T16:08:48Z")
Jury didn’t think so.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/30 "2008-11-26T16:28:29Z")
> [@Blalron](#):
>
> Isn’t the District of Columbia federal territory?
:smack: Yup.
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> Assassinating the President is.
:smack: :smack: Yup [sup]2[/sup].
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/31 "2008-11-26T16:50:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> they were chasing an armed drug smuggler, so yes its relevant.
They were not chasing an armed drug smuggler. They were attempting to detain an unarmed drug smuggler, (before they were even aware that he might possibly possess drugs), and then (clumsily) attempted to do him bodily harm when he tried to surrender.
[RESPONSE OF THE GOVERNMENT TO REPORTING INACCURACIES REGARDING THE COMPEAN AND RAMOS PROSECUTION](http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/Compean-Ramos/compeanramosfinal.pdf) (.pdf)
I’m not sure a 20 year sentence was warranted, but then they could have chosen to refrain from committing their crime in Texas where juries never make mistakes and are noted for their firm stance against crime.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/32 "2008-11-26T18:07:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> They were not chasing an armed drug smuggler. They were attempting to detain an unarmed drug smuggler, (before they were even aware that he might possibly possess drugs), and then (clumsily) attempted to do him bodily harm when he tried to surrender.
> [RESPONSE OF THE GOVERNMENT TO REPORTING INACCURACIES REGARDING THE COMPEAN AND RAMOS PROSECUTION](http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/Compean-Ramos/compeanramosfinal.pdf) (.pdf)
> I’m not sure a 20 year sentence was warranted, but then they could have chosen to refrain from committing their crime in Texas where juries never make mistakes and are noted for their firm stance against crime.
Should have sentenced them to more time on the firing range.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/33 "2008-11-26T18:14:36Z")
As targets.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/34 "2008-11-26T18:15:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> As targets.
Plenty of drug dealers for that.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/35 "2008-11-26T18:24:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Should have sentenced them to more time on the firing range.
Oner of the idiots is an instructor.
The sentence may have been a bit heavy handed, (although they still had the opton not to commit their crimes in Texas), but we do not need these idiots cluttering up law enforcement in the U.S.
At any rate, this is more than a bit off topic for this thread, particularly since Bush has not pardoned them.
(Actually, I’m not sure where this thread was pointed, to begin with. So far, all the pardons have been pretty non-controversial and there is enough for which to condemn Bush without dragging in actions that are fairly typical of all outgoing presidents.)
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/36 "2008-11-26T18:31:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Plenty of drug dealers for that.
It’s not an unreasonable view to support the death penalty for major drug dealers/kingpins. However, if you support that, I’d think a basic respect for law and civilized behavior would first require him to be found guilty and sentenced by a jury after a fair trial, rather than being shot by border agents whose lives aren’t in danger and who don’t realize he’s a drug dealer.
If we’re willing to retroactively justify these agents’ activities because the guy they shot and wounded happened to be a bad guy then we’re saying that the process doesn’t matter so long as the results are good, and by doing that, we’ve taken major steps toward tyranny and barbarism.
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### Author:  [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/37 "2008-11-26T18:38:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> ]Anyway, as much as I’d like to cluck and wax indignant about some of the names on this list, I have to admit I don’t know anything about them and there may be stories behind some of these decisions which could make them perfectly reasonable.
I think that entire list is perfectly reasonable. A bunch of more or less petty criminals who, for whatever reason, have convinced the White House that there is a good enough reason to pardon/commute. I don’t see anything out of the ordinary for any president here.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/38 "2008-11-26T18:44:33Z")
I’m a little bit surprised by Forte. It’s not that I think there’s anything wrong with it, I just wouldn’t _expect_ a guy like Bush to pardon a dreadlocked, rapper, coke dealer who looks exactly like a classic, Republican boogeyman.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/39 "2008-11-26T19:02:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> If we’re willing to retroactively justify these agents’ activities because the guy they shot and wounded happened to be a bad guy then we’re saying that the process doesn’t matter so long as the results are good, and by doing that, we’ve taken major steps toward tyranny and barbarism.
There’s some gray area here. While I wouldn’t call it a good shoot it involved an agent who perceived the fall of another agent as a scuffle with someone fleeing the police. Had they captured him it would have been a disciplinary review at the very minimum.
As it was, a drug dealer escaped across the border was seen as not worthy of the paperwork that would have involved a bad shoot.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/40 "2008-11-26T19:16:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> Oner of the idiots is an instructor.
>
> The sentence may have been a bit heavy handed, (although they still had the opton not to commit their crimes in Texas), but we do not need these idiots cluttering up law enforcement in the U.S.
>
> At any rate, this is more than a bit off topic for this thread, particularly since Bush has not pardoned them.
>
> (Actually, I’m not sure where this thread was pointed, to begin with. So far, all the pardons have been pretty non-controversial and there is enough for which to condemn Bush without dragging in actions that are fairly typical of all outgoing presidents.)
I’m inclined to agree with you. In the “however” category the border guards are in something of a wild-west atmosphere with drug dealers so I can see them not worrying about a major player who escapes. Since the agent didn’t actual gun-butt the suspect he’s not guilty of it but it contributed to the suspects actions which led to the other agents actions. Toss in the agent falling and the event spins out of control. I’d rather see them just drummed out of the force.
And yes, this has become a hijack (but I got a different perspective on it so that’s always a good thing).
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