# Bush Pardon list
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 25, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435 "2008-11-25T16:14:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/41 "2008-11-26T19:20:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> There’s some gray area here. While I wouldn’t call it a good shoot it involved an agent who perceived the fall of another agent as a scuffle with someone fleeing the police. Had they captured him it would have been a disciplinary review at the very minimum.
>
> As it was, a drug dealer escaped across the border was seen as not worthy of the paperwork that would have involved a bad shoot.
After shooting him, the agents holstered their weapons and walked away, which is why he escaped over the border in the first place.
It’s not a particularly gray area. These agents shot an unarmed man and then tried to cover their actions up by, first, failing to report their actions either verbally or in writing, and secondly, by tampering with the location where the events occured in order to destroy evidence. They used excessive force on an unarmed man, and that is against the law.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/42 "2008-11-26T19:56:10Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> After shooting him, the agents holstered their weapons and walked away, which is why he escaped over the border in the first place.
>
> It’s not a particularly gray area. These agents shot an unarmed man and then tried to cover their actions up by, first, failing to report their actions either verbally or in writing, and secondly, by tampering with the location where the events occured in order to destroy evidence. They used excessive force on an unarmed man, and that is against the law.
No, it’s gray. One agent perceived a threat and started to fire. He then stopped firing which is what they should be trained to do.
and yes, they covered it up after finding out it was a drug dealer who escaped across the border.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/43 "2008-11-26T20:11:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> A bunch of more or less petty criminals who, for whatever reason, have convinced the White House that there is a good enough reason to pardon/commute.
That might be an interesting topic of discussion… How did these particular petty criminals manage to get on Bush’s radar in the first place? Attorneys with really good connections?
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/44 "2008-11-26T20:51:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> That might be an interesting topic of discussion… How did these particular petty criminals manage to get on Bush’s radar in the first place? Attorneys with really good connections?
There’s an office in the Department of Justice; the Office of the Pardon Attorney. You can see their website here:
> **[Department of Justice | Homepage | United States Department of Justice](https://www.justice.gov/)**
>
> Official website of the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ). DOJ’s mission is to enforce the law and defend the interests of the United States according to the law; to ensure public safety against threats foreign and domestic; to provide federal...
Federal offenders can apply for pardon (if at least 5 years have passed since they completed their sentence) or sentence commutation. The office then reviews the applications and forwards their recommendations to the President.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/45 "2008-11-26T21:13:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> No, it’s gray. One agent perceived a threat and started to fire. He then stopped firing which is what they should be trained to do.
He stopped firing because he thought his victim was dead.
> [@](#):
>
> and yes, they covered it up after finding out it was a drug dealer who escaped across the border.
Covering it up and tampering with evidence are crimes. And it’s still irrelevant that the victim was a drug dealer.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/46 "2008-11-26T23:44:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> He stopped firing because he thought his victim was dead.
>
> .
that doesn’t make any sense. Then they would have had to deal with a body. No officer is going to assume a fleeing suspect is dead and turn their back on him.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/47 "2008-11-26T23:55:04Z")
I said it was why they stopped firing, not why they walked away.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/48 "2008-11-27T00:46:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> I’m a little bit surprised by Forte. It’s not that I think there’s anything wrong with it, I just wouldn’t _expect_ a guy like Bush to pardon a dreadlocked, rapper, coke dealer who looks exactly like a classic, Republican boogeyman.
Has anyone heard _why_ he pardoned Forte? I don’t know enough about the guy’s trial or life (I didn’t know he _existed_ before that list) other than Carly Simon (who he used to sing back-up for) petitioned for his innocence. I’m just wondering how he came to Bush’s attention, for I can’t imagine Dubya and Laura don’t generally go to that many Fugees concerts (though maybe the twins do).
It’ll be a surprise if he doesn’t pardon Libby at all.
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/49 "2008-11-27T01:59:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#):
>
> No. The state and federal governments are “seperate sovereigns”, so there’s no double jeopardy there. See, for instance, Michael Vick’s continuing legal woes.
However all crimes commited in the District of Columbia are crimes against the United States, not against the District. As long as the Vice-President killed the President in DC he could then pardon himself. One possible hiccup; does the VP need to actually be sworn in before the can exercise presidential powers?
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### Author:  [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2008, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/50 "2008-11-27T11:16:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> I think it raises another question. Could a VP kill the sitting POTUS, then pardon himself as soon as he gets sworn in?
Even if you could do this legally, the can of worms it opens is huge: you’ve basically declared open season for political assassination. So you kill the President and take his job - but now your VP might be gunning for you. And he (or she) wouldn’t have to do the deed personally; he could hire someone and then pardon them. Or you (as President) could get antsy and kill your Veep and pardon yourself again, then appoint someone else. Pretty soon we have a government run by the Medici family.
It’s much the same reason the President doesn’t just send in a ninja hit squad to take out enemy leaders instead of having a war. Once you openly sanction political assassination of other leaders, it makes you fair game as well.
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### Author:  [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/51 "2008-11-27T14:54:50Z")
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> Has anyone heard _why_ he pardoned Forte?
Either Olbermann or Maddow (MSNBC evenings) did a segment on the pardons and fleshed out some connection chain (that included Carly Simon, as you mentioned). Seemed kind of tenuous to me, but then I don’t care enough to look into it.
The segment also brought up the fact that at least 3 of the pardoned shared the common traits of being (a) from Texas and (b) convicted of crimes tracing back to the S&L scandal from the '80s. I don’t recall any particular motive spelled out for the coincidence of these pardons, which left me sort of scratching my head. Anyone have any further information?
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/52 "2008-11-27T16:30:18Z")
His brother Neil asked him for a favor?
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### Author:  [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/53 "2008-11-27T16:46:12Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#):
>
> His brother Neil asked him for a favor?
Well, yeah, nepotism is the obvious possibility. But it seems to me that if that’s the case, (a) more negative criticism would (deservedly) get thrown Bush’s way and (b) there’s further…um, let’s say…_substance_ to the story.
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### Author:  [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/54 "2008-11-27T16:59:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> That’s the theory. He could still be subsequently impeached and removed from power, of course, and Congress might be able to find away to impose other sanctions, but from what I’ve read, the Constitution does seem to allow a POTUS to theoretically pardon himself for murder as long as he moves quickly enough.
>
> **I think it raises another question. Could a VP kill the sitting POTUS, then pardon himself as soon as he gets sworn in**?
So that could be Pelosi’s master plan right there…bribe Biden to kill Obama under the ruse that he would become President, he gets brought up on murder charges, deposed from office, Pelosi becomes President…brilliant!
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 27, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/55 "2008-11-27T21:03:43Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#):
>
> Well, yeah, nepotism is the obvious possibility. But it seems to me that if that’s the case, (a) more negative criticism would (deservedly) get thrown Bush’s way and (b) there’s further…um, let’s say…_substance_ to the story.
Maybe Roger Clinton (Alumni of the Pardoned Graduating Class of '01) asked him for a favor.
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### Author:  [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/56 "2009-01-21T05:01:14Z")
[Only two last minute Bush pardons (Ramos and Compean)](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17595.html).
What a surprising bit of restraint on the part of Bush. Definitely an improvement over 2000.
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/57 "2009-01-21T05:31:45Z")
> [@cckerberos](#):
>
> [Only two last minute Bush pardons (Ramos and Compean)](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17595.html).
>
> What a surprising bit of restraint on the part of Bush. Definitely an improvement over 2000.
I have no idea why people are surprised by this. This is how he always worked. And the sentences were commuted, not a pardon. They have to serve till 20 March which makes their time in jail at 2 years.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/58 "2009-01-21T05:45:28Z")
> [@cckerberos](#):
>
> [Only two last minute Bush pardons (Ramos and Compean)](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17595.html).
I know Ramos and Compean have a lot of supporters, but I can summon absolutely no sympathy for people who shoot marijuana smugglers. :mad::mad::mad:
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### Author:  [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/59 "2009-01-21T13:53:52Z")
Is presidential pardon power limited to federal crimes?
This possibility didn’t occur to me until I read this thread. If it _is_ limited, blame my ignorance on an absolute interpretation of the word “absolute”.
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [January 21, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-pardon-list/474435/60 "2009-01-21T14:06:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> I know Ramos and Compean have a lot of supporters, but I can summon absolutely no sympathy for people who shoot marijuana smugglers. :mad::mad::mad:
And I have no sympathy for marijuana smugglers as they have no problem gunning down anyone who gets in their way. The two Border Patrol agents did mishandle the shooting and deserve some jail time. I do feel their original sentences were out of line. However, they should not get their jobs back, they proved they cannot be trusted with that level of responsibility.
For the record , I do favor legalizing marijuana.
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