# Bush really thinks Europe supported him ? Bush's grasp of reality. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254 "2004-06-25T22:57:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/41 "2004-06-26T17:00:05Z")
Heaven forbid the leader of the free world, the representative of democracy, should ever, EVER even CONSIDER listening to the majority of the world, much less his own country. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/42 "2004-06-26T17:08:16Z")
Good point, **Rune**! Well, “good” for a Yurpeen. One need only regard Spain, where fully 10% of the population concurred with the decisions of thier governance! Which governance, wisely, decided to ignore the carping and calumny of the the numerical majority, and to adhere to the opinions of those who demonstrate the most clear-headed position. After all, this democracy thing can go too far, and lead to the “mob rule” of the majority. If only they had taken heed of the political wisdom of Gen. Franco, the much beloved _El Caudillo_, and prevented such needless displays as an “election”, they might not have been tossed out on their collective ass. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/43 "2004-06-26T17:37:10Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Heaven forbid the leader of the free world, the representative of democracy, should ever, EVER even CONSIDER listening to the majority of the world, much less his own country. :rolleyes: He may or may not be the “leader of the free world”, but he took an oath as President of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/44 "2004-06-26T17:50:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Good point, **Rune**! Well, “good” for a Yurpeen. Good point, **elucidator**! Well, “good” for a stupid yakeee. :rolleyes: > [@elucidator](#): > > One need only regard Spain, where fully 10% of the population concurred with the decisions of thier governance! Which governance, wisely, decided to ignore the carping and calumny of the the numerical majority, and to adhere to the opinions of those who demonstrate the most clear-headed position. Or perhaps we should look at Germany? Which despite its vocal anti-Iraq war stand currently has the most disliked government since Adolf Hitler. Anyway Spain didn’t put the matter of Iraq out for a general poll, and as such there’s just no-way you (despite your undoubtedly amazing perception) or me or anyone else can know what the numerical majority thinks. The only thing we do know is that their democratically elected government at the time supported the US. > [@elucidator](#): > > After all, this democracy thing can go too far, and lead to the “mob rule” of the majority. If only they had taken heed of the political wisdom of Gen. Franco, the much beloved El Caudillo, and prevented such needless displays as an “election”, they might not have been tossed out on their collective ass. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Imran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7feea3/32.png) [@Imran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imran)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/45 "2004-06-26T18:25:34Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Nah, you really need to be more objective. Lets look at the list of European countries that were in the coalition of the willing .i.e. those countries that supported Bush as signatories to the coalition. > United Kingdom(60.3) > Spain(40.3) > Portugal(10.5) > Denmark(5.4) > Netherlands(16.3) > Iceland(0.3) > Italy(58.1) > Estonia(1.3) > Latvia(2.3) > Lithuania(3.6) > Poland(38.6) > Czech Republic(10.2) > Slovakia (5.4) > Hungary(10.0) > Albania (3.5) > Macedonia(2.1) > Romania (22.4) > Bulgaria (7.5) > Turkey(68.9) > Croatia(4.5) > Slovenia(2.0) > Ukraine(47.7) > > Total represented population in support of Bush in Europe at the start of the war is 421.2 million. > > Lets look at the European countries that were opposed. > France(60.4) > Germany(82.4) > Belgium(10.3) > Russia(143.8) > Belarus(10.3) > Greece(10.6) > > Total represented population opposed in Europe at the start of the war is 317.8 million. > > By my reckoning, 57% of Europe supported Bush at the start of the war. Even presidential elections in the US are rarely show that much support fore the winner. > > Certainly you can argue the merits of that support, as well as the legitimacy of support by national governments contrary to polls within the various countries, but to challenge Bush’s assertion that most of Europe was behind him is just plain incorrect. I see what you’re saying, but your post is (presumably) unintentionally misleading. Allow me to clear up a point or two. Becoming a signatory truly means nothing beyond the desire to see the topic debated. Figuring America would just go in with or without debate, what hard really could have come from trying? These countries weren’t so much the “coalition of the willing” as they were the “coalition of the curious.” Just for the record, I’m not trying to be hostile with this post. – Imran ---
**Author:** ![Imran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7feea3/32.png) [@Imran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imran)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/46 "2004-06-26T18:26:46Z")
Guh, this is why Preview is your best friend. What _harm_, not what hard. This board needs an edit button. – Imran ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/47 "2004-06-26T19:20:29Z")
re Bush’s grasp of reality: aren’t we overlooking something here? In the neoconservative worldview being reluctant to wage a war of aggression is grounded in cowardice or stupidity at best, and nefarious motives at worst. So, overstating European support for the war on Iraq must be, in Bush’s view, not self-serving at all, but rather gracious and forgiving. We should be _grateful_ for it. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/48 "2004-06-26T20:52:51Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > By my reckoning, 57% of Europe supported Bush at the start of the war. … > Certainly you can argue the merits of that support, as well as the legitimacy of support by national governments contrary to polls within the various countries, but to challenge Bush’s assertion that most of Europe was behind him is just plain incorrect. Closer to 60-65% once we remove the non-European sectors of Russia and Turkey, but still NOT ‘most of Europe’. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/49 "2004-06-26T20:54:56Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Hasn’t this been rehashed a thousand times already? **Yes a large part (if not majority) of Europe (population-wise** and country count) supported America in Iraq because a majority of European governments supported the USA and because in Europe we’re governed by representative rule and hasn’t yet descended to rule-by-poll, rule-by-the-street, rule-by-mob or any other such stupidity. LOOK AT THE CITES. The vast majority of the population of Europe opposed the war. Their govenments acted against their wishes. They’ve already been punished for that in Spain, a result likely to be repeated across the continent. And if I’m not mistaken, ‘rule-by-poll’=‘democracy’? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/50 "2004-06-26T20:56:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Heard of “mostly”? Yes. It wasn’t ‘mostly’ London that was hit. ‘Most’ is getting throughly misused at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/51 "2004-06-28T04:23:48Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > By my reckoning, 57% of Europe supported Bush at the start of the war. Even presidential elections in the US are rarely show that much support fore the winner. Without dabbling to much in the country vs population debate… I’d like to comment that Turkey didn’t much seem a “coalition” member. Also countries that didn’t support or oppose the War seem to have been left out ? Ireland, Austria, Switzerland, Sweden… etc… After all he said “MOST of Europe” supported him… not that more supported vs opposed him. So your calculations are off. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254/52 "2004-06-28T11:03:12Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Not even a nice try. My response was to _On everything from policies on terrorism, Iraq, Israel/Palestine to trade, Kyoto, and the ICC, the President gets bashed for going against “world opinion”._ so, are you saying that Bush’s decisions and positions on the emphasized points aren’t part of his foreign policy? what parts of his policies on Iraq, or Israel/ Palestine will affect American citizens? if Bush want’s America to play as world Cop, he’s sure as hell going to have to listen to world opinion. Not even a nice try yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-really-thinks-europe-supported-him-bushs-grasp-of-reality/252254.md?page=2)