# Bush recruits Pope for campaign

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-recruits-pope-for-campaign/250239>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [June 14, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-recruits-pope-for-campaign/250239 "2004-06-14T04:14:04Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 4\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-recruits-pope-for-campaign/250239/41 "2004-06-17T23:31:40Z")

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> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> Well, for one thing, the death penalty issue has never been discussed as doctrine within the church. The pope opposes it and various national councils of bishops have opposed it.

So the pope may be fallible on the issue?

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**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-recruits-pope-for-campaign/250239/42 "2004-06-17T23:44:37Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> So the pope may be fallible on the issue?

Well, the extrremely conservative Catholic, Antonin Scalia, sure seems to think so.  
The pope is only deemed infallible when he chooses to speak from the seat (_ex cathedra_) of the papacy on matters of faith and morals. While the death penalty is certainly a matter of morality, no pope has chosen to assert an infallible opinion on the subject. (Infallibility is only 134 years old and it has only been invoked twice. No one (well, except maybe Cardinal Ratzinger) believes that the pope is infallible every time he issues an encyclical or other proclamation.)

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**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\
**Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-recruits-pope-for-campaign/250239/43 "2004-06-18T00:15:10Z")

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_from Vatican Council II_

> [@](#):
>
> “This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and that one sincerely adhere to decisions made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention …”

How is that conservative Catholics chide liberal ones over and over for not giving loyal submission, then when it’s their pet issue, it’s suddenly “oh, that’s never been addressed _ex cathedra_.”

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**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\
**Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-recruits-pope-for-campaign/250239/44 "2004-06-18T01:17:39Z")

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Take _that_ up with Tony Scalia.

I happen to agree with the pope on _this_ topic.

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A more nuanced response would get into whether giving “in a special way” “loyal submission of will and intellect” to the _authority_ is the same as accepting the results of that authority in complete acceptance and obedience. The current pope has made several references to the need for obedience within the church, but a number of theologians (and a few bishops) have noted that acknowledging and demonstrating respect for the authority does not, in and of itself, require one to simply “believe because one has been told to believe.” It can be, of course, a fairly rancorous discussion.

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