# Bush says Israel should be the model for Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959 "2007-06-29T19:20:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![XaMcQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f9ae1b/32.png) [@XaMcQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XaMcQ)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/1 "2007-06-29T19:20:05Z")
[link](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6251982.stm) :smack: That is such a stupid thing to say, I have trouble deciding where to start. The two countries are nothing alike, to begin with, and Israel’s situation isn’t one to strive for, even if they were. And once you get past that message of vast ignorance, is he so bloody clueless that Iraqis don’t _like_ Israel, and certainly would not appreciate him saying their country should emulate it. Not to mention it’s bound to be quoted throughout the Islamic world, in the most inflammatory way possible. Remember during the debates with Kerry, when there were those rumors of Bush having some kind of wire on, with someone prompting him to say things more intelligently than he is normally wont to do? Can we get him to wear it all the time, ya think? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/2 "2007-06-29T19:24:20Z")
Right up there with the “crusades” gaffe. Man has a gift, ain’t no denying it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/3 "2007-06-29T19:24:35Z")
I swear if the Jews and Muslims could just get together and discuss their situation in a Chrisitan manner … ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/4 "2007-06-29T19:33:59Z")
Do I detect a note of sarcasm? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/5 "2007-06-29T19:34:00Z")
I’m not sure I quite agree that “Israel should be the model for Iraq” is the most accurate paraphrase of Bush’s remarks, but I think what he actually said is quite a head-scratcher in its own right: > [@](#): > > Mr Bush suggested Israel as a standard to work towards. > > "In places like Israel, terrorists have taken innocent human life for years in suicide attacks. > > “The difference is that Israel is a functioning democracy and it’s not prevented from carrying out its responsibilities. And that’s a good indicator of success that we’re looking for in Iraq.” That’s the “success” that we’re aiming for in Iraq? Terrorists can go on taking innocent human life for years, as long as Iraq is a functioning democracy that’s not prevented from carrying out its responsibilities? The expectations implied there are somehow simultaneously so depressingly low (because we’re not even pretending any more that we’ll be able actually to stop the terrorists in Iraq) and so unrealistically high (because we’re pretending that Iraq will be able to become a functioning democracy that can fulfill its responsibilities) that it makes my brain hurt just trying to parse it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/6 "2007-06-29T19:35:16Z")
I guess the El Salvador model ran out of favor. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from\_our\_own\_correspondent/4209595.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4209595.stm) I’m only half kidding, I still think the appearance and growth of death squads in Iraq is too much to be a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/7 "2007-06-29T19:45:39Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] I’m not sure I quite agree that “Israel should be the model for Iraq” is the most accurate paraphrase of Bush’s remarks . . . [/QUOTE] Perhaps not, but it’s what will be remembered and repeated on the “Arab Street.” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/8 "2007-06-29T22:47:06Z")
I think Druuna should be the model for my live-in servant, but I’m not likely to get that, either. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/9 "2007-06-30T20:22:27Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] I guess the El Salvador model ran out of favor. > **[BBC NEWS | Programmes | From Our Own Correspondent | 'Salvador Option' mooted...](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4209595.stm)** > > Tom Gibb revisits the horrors of El Salvador's civil war as it emerges some US officials are considering similar tactics in Iraq. I’m only half kidding, I still think the appearance and growth of death squads in Iraq is too much to be a coincidence. [/QUOTE] Mara Salvatrucha for everyone! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/10 "2007-06-30T20:43:25Z")
How about Mara Salvatrucha for some, tiny American flags for everyone! ETA: What is Mara Salvatrucha, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/11 "2007-07-01T02:51:05Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] How about Mara Salvatrucha for some, tiny American flags for everyone! ETA: What is Mara Salvatrucha, anyway? [/QUOTE] MS 13. It is the most ferocious gang in the United States, skirts the line between ethnic gang and international guerilla organization. They have active operations in about 3/4 of US states. They are Salvadorans who are organized in a decentralized fashion and have a very active black market infrastructure. They were organized out of the CIA’s involvement in El Salvador. > **[MS-13](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Salvatrucha)** > > Mara Salvatrucha (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Spanish: \[ˈmaɾa salβaˈtɾut͡ʃa\]; lit. 'Cunning Salvadoran gang'\[a\]), commonly known as MS-13, is an international criminal gang that originated in Los Angeles, California, in the 1980s. Originally, the gang was set up to protect Salvadoran immigrants from other gangs in the Los Ang... ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/12 "2007-07-01T04:21:44Z")
_scratches head_ Well, from reading the article I don’t see that the OP has been very accurate in his/her assertion that ‘Bush says Israel should be a model for Iraq’. What it seems to boil down to is this (from the cited article): > [@](#): > > He said America would like to see Iraq function as a democracy while dealing with violence - just as Israel does. Makes sense to me, but YMMV. What he seems to be getting at is that he hopes that Iraq will be able to continue to function as a democracy even while still under attack internally…similarly to Israel who is still able to function as a democracy while under attack. Again from the article: > [@](#): > > “The difference is that Israel is a functioning democracy and it’s not prevented from carrying out its responsibilities. And that’s a good indicator of success that we’re looking for in Iraq.” This isn’t (in any way, shape or form) saying that Iraq should model itself on Israel…at least not as I’m reading it. He’s merely stating that success in Iraq shouldn’t depend on whether or not terrorists and insurgents continue to attack…which makes sense to me. Now…if one wants to debate exactly what success actually means in Iraq, and how well their ‘democracy’ actually DOES work, then I probably would agree with an answer of ‘not too well, so far’. But the OP (and the BBC) are seriously misquoting the president on this one. > [@](#): > > The two countries are nothing alike, to begin with, and Israel’s situation isn’t one to strive for, even if they were. Well, your cite doesn’t show that Bush actually suggested that Iraq should strive to be just like Israel…and to be honest, I think that the democracy (and relative government stability) in Israel IS something that should be a model in the region. YMMV of course… > [@](#): > > And once you get past that message of vast ignorance, is he so bloody clueless that Iraqis don’t like Israel, and certainly would not appreciate him saying their country should emulate it. But once you actually bother reading the article you cited one is struck by the simple fact that Bush ISN’T saying what you (and perhaps the BBC…though in their case I suspect they were trying to be sensational) are claiming he said. The irony of claiming ‘vast ignorance’ on Bush’s part (in this case…I’d go with that statement for Bush on other things) is also…well, kind of ironic. > [@](#): > > Not to mention it’s bound to be quoted throughout the Islamic world, in the most inflammatory way possible. It probably will…won’t be the first time however that the ‘Islamic world’™ has grossly misrepresented what people are saying. I seem to recall some incidents in Europe in the last few years… > [@](#): > > Remember during the debates with Kerry, when there were those rumors of Bush having some kind of wire on, with someone prompting him to say things more intelligently than he is normally wont to do? Can we get him to wear it all the time, ya think? Well, it would probably be a good idea at that. Another good idea however would be to actually not misquote the man…he makes enough foot in mouth statements and gaffs all on his own without making stuff up… -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/13 "2007-07-01T04:28:02Z")
I wonder how long Iraqi democracy would be allowed to continue if a democratically elected government decided to court China rather than the US, as an oil customer. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/14 "2007-07-01T04:33:26Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I wonder how long Iraqi democracy would be allowed to continue if a democratically elected government decided to court China rather than the US, as an oil customer. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: You have no idea how oil is sold on the international market…do you? To put it another way…how much oil do you suppose ‘the US’ buy’s from Iraq? -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/15 "2007-07-03T18:39:25Z")
> [@Hope Alope](#): > > When the UN voted on whether Israel has institutional racism, why didn’t the US join the majority? No idea what you are talking about. Could I get a cite so I can look over exactly what was voted on…then I’ll be in a better position to answer your question as to why the US didn’t vote on it to ‘join the majority’. > [@Hope Alope](#): > > Their whole country is based on ethnic cleansing. What do you base this on? > [@Hope Alope](#): > > Don’t co-exist with Paletinians, force them into small enclaves. Sadly, your grasp of history and the facts seems to be tenuous. Again, what do you base the assertion that its ISRAEL that doesn’t want to co-exist with the Palestinian’s on? What do you base the assertion that its ISRAEL that has forced them into ‘small enclaves’ on? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/16 "2007-07-03T19:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] I think Druuna should be the model for my live-in servant, but I’m not likely to get that, either. [/QUOTE] You’d probably get tired of her constantly bitching about her lower back hurting. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![XaMcQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f9ae1b/32.png) [@XaMcQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XaMcQ)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/17 "2007-07-03T20:01:52Z")
I’m sorry, but to me, making the argument that because Israel manages to be a Middle East democracy while dealing with occasional(or if you like frequent) attacks from terrorists, that Iraq should be able to do the same is comparing apples to hammers. It’s akin to saying that because a duck and platypus both lay eggs and have bills, that the platypus should be able to fly like a duck. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/18 "2007-07-03T22:04:27Z")
> [@XaMcQ](#): > > I’m sorry, but to me, making the argument that because Israel manages to be a Middle East democracy while dealing with occasional(or if you like frequent) attacks from terrorists, that Iraq should be able to do the same is comparing apples to hammers. It’s akin to saying that because a duck and platypus both lay eggs and have bills, that the platypus should be able to fly like a duck. Um…he’s saying that he thinks they should STRIVE for that. Seriously, I think you should go back and re-read the article. I don’t see anything wrong in saying the Iraqi’s should strive for a democracy that is stable enough to be able to function even in the face of terrorist/insurgent attacks…in a similar way to how Israel is able to continue to function as a democracy in spite of such attacks. Why exactly do you think this is a bad thing? Or unreasonable (to wish for anyway)? Remember that its YOU (and the BBC to be fair) who are mischaracterizing what Bush said as that Iraq should model themselves after Israel (the implication being that they should become JUST like Israel). I don’t see why saying that Iraq should strive for a stable democracy that is stable enough to continue to function despite attacks (LIKE how Israel does) is a bad thing. Unrealistic perhaps, considering that Iraq’s democracy is pretty well non-functional (unlike Israel’s)…but why is it bad? Could you give some details? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/19 "2007-07-03T22:23:17Z")
Yeah, I’m having trouble seeing this as a gaffe - other than, of course, any mention of Israel in a positive light is bound to set off a certain amount of ranting. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959/20 "2007-07-03T23:42:28Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] :rolleyes: You have no idea how oil is sold on the international market…do you? To put it another way…how much oil do you suppose ‘the US’ buy’s from Iraq? -XT [/QUOTE] Well I figured saying ‘Buying oil from Iraq’, was simpler than saying, “Giving China oil concessions in competition with the American oil concessions.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-israel-should-be-the-model-for-iraq/409959.md?page=2)