# Bush says Michigan State shouldn't accept Blacks over Whites anymore. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993 "2003-01-16T16:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/41 "2003-01-16T19:48:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhum Runner \* > \*\ ***DanielWithrow** if you look at the link I posted above you will see that the same points available for minority status are also available for “socio-economic disadvantage.” Striking the racial criteria from U of M’s system would still allow points to be given to those who actually come from a disadvantaged background. \*\* This is a good point; on the other hand, it doesn’t address the legacy complaint, which is a noneconomic race-based preference in favor of white people. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/42 "2003-01-16T19:48:44Z")
Rhum: I don’t think the stigma thing flies. I’ve seen lots of minorities interviewed who don’t give a sh\*t what stigma is attached. It always sounds like something drummed up by a frustrated white guy who ran out of arguments. “We’re only trying to do what’s best for the minority guy.” A better way to look at it is to examine the drop-out/failure rate of AA admittees vs non-AA admittees. If you can show that it is significanlty higher, then you ARE doing the minority a disservice. Chances are, they’d do better somewhere else. Unfortunately I’ve never seen a study (either way) that wasn’t rejected by the opposite side as being “biased”. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/43 "2003-01-16T19:50:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **As I understand it, _Bakke_ more-or-less prohibited reverse discrimination, but it left a bit of wiggle room. So, the Court could rule that the Michigan system fits within the wiggle room. Or, I suppose they could totally undo _Bakke_ and permit reverse discrimination. Or, they could go the other way, and eliminate all wiggle room.** _Bakke_ is a huge pain in the ass. Four judges say quotas are fine as a remedy for past discrimination, four say quotas aren’t fine, and one justice – Powell – says quotas aren’t fine, but race may be usedused as a “plus factor” between otherwise-equally qualified candidates to further diversity. This, of course, led to years of dishonesty as college admissions developed programs like the one at UT Law which claimed to only be using race as a “plus factor.” Effectively, you’ve got one guy, Powell, determining the law of the land. To say that _Bakke_ is of dubious precedential value is an understatement. Curse you, **december** , for making me have to read over that damned tortured opinion again! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/44 "2003-01-16T19:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*This is a good point; on the other hand, it doesn’t address the legacy complaint, which is a noneconomic race-based preference in favor of white people. \*\* Legacies are a relatively small proportion of admitted students in comparison to those admitted under AA. Still, I’d be perfectly happy to see the legacy system disappear as well – it only persists for fund-raising reasons, I suspect. But so what? Are you seriously trying to raise a “two wrongs make a right” defense? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/45 "2003-01-16T19:55:20Z")
Let’s kick out the whole legacy thing right now. Is there anyone out there who believes it is OK at a PUBLIC institution? Then let’s move on from there. Two wrongs don’t make a right, etc, etc, etc. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/46 "2003-01-16T19:56:38Z")
Dewey: I swear I didn’t see your post before I wrote my last one… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/47 "2003-01-16T20:03:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\* Are you seriously trying to raise a “two wrongs make a right” defense? \*\* Depends on what you mean by that. I do think that when a system is unbalanced in one direction, if you’re not willing to remove the unbalance, the next best thing is to add an imbalance in the other direction. When the scales tip one way, yo’ve got a wrong; but adding something to the other side of the scales doesn’t constitute another wrong so much as it constitutes a balancing act. However, if everyone’s willing to get rid of the legacy system, I’ll withdraw my objection. I’m still not entirely sure what i think about AA; without the legacy system, I’ve got no solid arguments in its favor, though. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/48 "2003-01-16T20:04:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Legacies are a relatively small proportion of admitted students in comparison to those admitted under AA. Still, I’d be perfectly happy to see the legacy system disappear as well – it only persists for fund-raising reasons, I suspect. But so what? Are you seriously trying to raise a “two wrongs make a right” defense? To me, it smacks of flagrant hypocrisy when Bush moans and groans about the injustice of AA. If he wants to dismantle preference policies, he needs to go whole-hog and stop pretending that he got to his own station in life by pulling himself by the bootstraps. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/49 "2003-01-16T20:12:36Z")
Face: Although you have a good pt about legacy, remember that we have laws against racial discrimination, but I’ don’t think there is an actual law you could cite about legacy. What would the basis be for someone to bring a lawsuit against legacy? Equal Protection clause? I’m not sure. Bush could have scored some points by urging the university to end the legacy program as well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/50 "2003-01-16T20:16:01Z")
Face: I think you’re being a bit unfair to Bush. I’ve never seen him say he pulled himself up from his own boostraps. In fact, I’ve seen him specifically acknowledge that he had advantages growing up. Do you have an example of what you are accusing Bush of? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/51 "2003-01-16T20:33:25Z")
by John: > [@](#): > > Although you have a good pt about legacy, remember that we have laws against racial discrimination, but I’ don’t think there is an actual law you could cite about legacy. I don’t know of one, either. Is nepotism or cronyism (with a pinch of bribery thrown in) legal? That’s what it amounts to in my eyes. But Bush’s appeal was not just about legality, anyway. Although he does make mention of constitutionality, he emphasized the “unfairness and divisiveness” of AA. Giving preference to a student because of an alumnus parent is not any more fair than giving points for being an ethnic minority, and the only reason why the issue isn’t as divisive as it is is because the recipients of such preferences tend to blend in well with the non-recipients. To make his argument less eye-roll worthy, he should have just stuck to the constitutionality argument and left out the shit about fairness and what MLK would have wanted. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/52 "2003-01-16T20:42:25Z")
I agree with you, and as I said earlier, he could have scored some good points if he had attacked the legacy issue as well. Does anyone know if there has been an attempt to challenge legacy in the courts? I’ve never heard of one. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/53 "2003-01-16T20:44:09Z")
> [@](#): > > To me, it smacks of flagrant hypocrisy when Bush moans and groans about the injustice of AA. If he wants to dismantle preference policies, he needs to go whole-hog and stop pretending that he got to his own station in life by pulling himself by the bootstraps. That’s all. So perpetuating injustice is fine, as long as you’re not hypocritical about it? Could Bush legitimately state that drinking and driving is bad, or should he keep quiet on that, too? Jeff ---
**Author:** ![SojournerSamson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SojournerSamson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SojournerSamson)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/54 "2003-01-16T20:57:27Z")
Bush is giving his(and Rove’s) blessing to the continuing campaign to resegregate American education. The message uncoded is “There is no place at the table for native Americans,Hispanics,and black Americans.” Instead of protecting the Flowers of white womanhood the code rallying cry will be protecting the little white children. A further insult is the smug co-opting of Dr. King’s words. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/55 "2003-01-16T20:59:46Z")
> [@](#): > > think you’re being a bit unfair to Bush. I’ve never seen him say he pulled himself up from his own boostraps. In fact, I’ve seen him specifically acknowledge that he had advantages growing up. It’s been my experience that many people who put a lot of stock in the word “fair” during these kinds of discussions, often try to downplay the long-standing “unfairness” that is responsible for the way things are today. Not everyone, but a good many. Bush comes across as being one of them. But you know? I could be wrong. BTW, I don’t think race-based preferences are the greatest thing in the world, and there are more sound arguments in favor of scraping it than keeping it. But I do believe the issue of racial disparity that exists in colleges today goes a lot deeper than simple economics. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/56 "2003-01-16T21:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s been my experience that many people who put a lot of stock in the word “fair” during these kinds of discussions, often try to downplay the long-standing “unfairness” that is responsible for the way things are today. Not everyone, but a good many. Bush comes across as being one of them. But you know? I could be wrong. And a lot of others downplay the tremendous progress that has been made over the past 150 years, the last 35 or so in particular. > [@](#): > > BTW, I don’t think race-based preferences are the greatest thing in the world, and there are more sound arguments in favor of scraping it than keeping it. But I do believe the issue of racial disparity that exists in colleges today goes a lot deeper than simple economics. Very true - there’s a significant cultural aspect to the performance gap between whites and non-whites. There’s a problem of illegitimacy, and a problem of a culture that considers success to be a betrayal of one’s roots. These are problems that must be addressed at the source, rather than masked with proverbial duct tape at the college level. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Texican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ebca7d/32.png) [@Texican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Texican)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/57 "2003-01-16T21:30:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*I am much troubled by “affirmative action” and my lefty credentials are solid. My problem reflects **John Mace** above: what the hell is “black”, anyway. If I claim to be black on my application, how are they gonna know? I’m about one eighth Cherokee, am I more “colored” than someone whos a sixteenth Afro? If we are to eliminate the concept of race from our system, we must be willing to eliminate it entirely, root and branch. I loath racism in any form, however benign the face it presents. > > On the other hand, and we liberals always have the “other hand”, I agree that diversity is a good thing, an enlightening thing. But there simply has to be a better way to do it. My best guess is an economic based preference: poor people are much more diverse than rich people, you can bet your butt on that. > > On this issue, as much as it grinds my 'nads, GeeDubya is ri…is ri… is not entirely wrong. \*\* Based on what I heard on the news this morning, being 1/8th minority is all it takes to qualify for their minority status. So if great granddaddy was black, hispanic or native american, you get extra credit. I will tell you why I am opposed to these special admission standards: The best qualified should be admitted, period. If I want to hire a lawyer, don’t i deserve to get the best available? Why should I settle for one that was admitted based on qualifications other than ability? I should think that minorities should oppose these practices as it inevitibly will call into question whether they are qualified to perform as well as others who were admitted solely based on academics. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/58 "2003-01-16T21:47:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Very true - there’s a significant cultural aspect to the performance gap between whites and non-whites. There’s a problem of illegitimacy, and a problem of a culture that considers success to be a betrayal of one’s roots. These are problems that must be addressed at the source, rather than masked with proverbial duct tape at the college level. Right. Black culture equates success with being anti-black. Of course. Funny how I never came across that particular black indoctrination while I was growing up in da hood, but I’ll take your word for it. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/59 "2003-01-16T21:49:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I should think that minorities should oppose these practices as it inevitibly will call into question whether they are qualified to perform as well as others who were admitted solely based on academics. One would hope, but I don’t think the real world works this way. People tend to support initiatives that favor them, fairness be damned. If you proposed a measure that all people named Bob should be exempt from taxes, you’d probably see a very vocal pro-Bob lobbying group pop up to support it. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/60 "2003-01-16T22:13:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by you with the face \* > \*\*Right. Black culture equates success with being anti-black. Of course. Funny how I never came across that particular black indoctrination while I was growing up in da hood, but I’ll take your word for it. \*\* I assume **Texican** meant _academic_ success was seen as anti-black. This is a widespread belief. E.g., from a review of [John H. McWhorter’s book, \*Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684836696/102-9997458-4996147?vi=glance) \*, > [@](#): > > For the past two decades, an academic cottage industry has developed to analyze–and some would say overemphasize–the social and educational problems of African Americans. Such writers as Dinesh D’Souza, Shelby Steele, Armstrong Williams, and Ken Hamblin have all contributed in this area; now add to that list John McWhorter, a Berkeley linguistics professor and the author of Word on the Street, an examination of Ebonics and Black English. The basic idea he presents in this occasionally insightful if flawed book is that African Americans are not advancing socially as a result of victimology, separatism, and anti-intellectualism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993.md?page=4)