# Bush says Michigan State shouldn't accept Blacks over Whites anymore. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993 "2003-01-16T16:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/61 "2003-01-16T22:34:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Does anyone know if there has been an attempt to challenge legacy in the courts? I’ve never heard of one. \*\* Under existing law, such a challenge would be doomed to fail. Challenges to AA are premised on two sources of law: the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment. The 1964 Act only applies to discrimination in certain specified categories, the most important of which is race; legacy status or the lack thereof is not one of those categories. Thus, a challenge to legacy admissions would have to be premised on Equal Protection arguments. Under Supreme Court precedent, the Equal Protection clause is applied using different tests depending on the subject matter under challenge. For certain fundamental rights (voting, ballot access, travel) and for “suspect classifications” – e.g., race or alienage – courts apply the _strict scrutiny_ test. This requires that the _government_ show that whatever is being challenged is narrowly tailored to satisfy a compelling government interest. Then there is an _intermediate scrutiny_ test for “quasi-suspect” classifications such as gender, which is inapplicable here. And then there’s the catch-all _rational basis_ test, which requires that the _plaintiff_ prove that the act his is challenging has “no rational basis.” This is, as you can imagine, a very difficult burden to meet. A state college could easily defeat a challenge by saying “legacy applications are beneficial to the school as a whole because they aid in fund-raising.” Boom, rational basis test met. N.B.: I’m not defending the legacy system, I’m just pointing out how the courts would analyze the issues presented. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/62 "2003-01-16T22:42:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SojournerSamson \* > \*\*Bush is giving his(and Rove’s) blessing to the continuing campaign to resegregate American education. > The message uncoded is “There is no place at the table for native Americans,Hispanics,and black Americans.” Instead of protecting the Flowers of white womanhood the code rallying cry will be protecting the little white children. A further insult is the smug co-opting of Dr. King’s words. \*\* Yep, that’s it. It wasn’t until I put back on my tinfoil hat that I was able to understand the code too. What’s it like going through life fighting windmills? ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/63 "2003-01-16T22:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Texican \* > \*\* > > I will tell you why I am opposed to these special admission standards: The best qualified should be admitted, period. If I want to hire a lawyer, don’t i deserve to get the best available? Why should I settle for one that was admitted based on qualifications other than ability? \*\* An extremely important point here is that affirmative action proponents feel that “best qualified” can’t be determined according to raw test scores and grades. They are two measures, but they are not complete measures, and may in fact be FLAWED measures when it comes to certain students. As for finding a lawyer, I am sure you could find people who aced the LSAT but who are not good lawyers, for a number of reasons. “Best” isn’t well measured that way. Colleges and universities feel that way, at any rate. The other problem with your argument is that if a college like Michigan was simply to admit “the best qualified, period” (using “best qualified” as a proxy for high test scores and grades), it could fill the dorms with smart people. But its nursing school might be only half-filled. Its Education programs might be underpopulated. The engineering programs would be stuffed to the rafters, as would be the business school. I can tell you right now the art school would be closed. Michigan chooses to let in “less qualified” people because those students (and this has NOTHING to do with ethnicity or race or gender, by the way) have a commitment to programs and majors that Michigan wishes to teach and careers that Michigan wants to have a hand in shaping. And frankly, one of the reasons the law school lets in “less qualified” people is that some of those students tend to work in underserved areas and do more pro bono work than their “best qualified” counterparts. Michigan has an interest in seeing to it that Michigan’s excellent legal education is put to such purposes–so they admit people who are committed to doing it. In short, colleges use all sorts of “different” standards for different groups. People land on the race issue with both feet for some reason, and I know it’s not just because race is a protected classification in the constitution. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/64 "2003-01-16T23:08:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > An extremely important point here is that affirmative action proponents feel that “best qualified” can’t be determined according to raw test scores and grades. They are two measures, but they are not complete measures, and may in fact be FLAWED measures when it comes to certain students. True, but it’s an enormous leap to then say that adding 20 points to every black and Hispanic appicant’s score improves the flawed measure. There’s every reason to believe that this adjustment makes the measure more flawed. > [@](#): > > People land on the race issue with both feet for some reason, and I know it’s not just because race is a protected classification in the constitution. In my case, it’s because I consider preferences to be racist, divisive, and harmful to all Americans. I hope your coded statement wasn’t intended to imply that affirmative action opponents are racists. In the same spirit, I won’t accuse affrmative action supporters of racism, either. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/65 "2003-01-16T23:54:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\*An extremely important point here is that affirmative action proponents feel that “best qualified” can’t be determined according to raw test scores and grades. They are two measures, but they are not complete measures, and may in fact be FLAWED measures when it comes to certain students. > \*\* Which brings me to my beef with their scale. There are a number of subjective assessments, as there should be. But you can get the maximum scores on your essay, on your demonstrated personal Achievement and your Leadership and service, and you only het 11 points combined. So white guy X can be “nationally” recognized for both leadership and community service (!), and write a kick-ass essay, and that all combines for barely half than having the right skin color. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/66 "2003-01-17T01:11:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I assume Texican meant academic success was seen as anti-black. This is a widespread belief. E.g., from a review of John H. McWhorter’s book, Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America I hear a lot of people claim that black people associate academic success with trying to be white. What they don’t realize when they make this generalization is that most of the black people who have this mentality are poor and lack positive role models because of that. The whole notion of likening hard work in school to “selling-out” or being “lame” is not one monopolized by The Black Race; it’s a mistake to blur race with class in this particular regard. Unless you can show that poor white kids do not abuse their more studious peers by calling them “nerd”, “geek”, or “sell-out”, then my position stands. ---
**Author:** ![Texican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ebca7d/32.png) [@Texican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Texican)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/67 "2003-01-17T01:22:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I assume **Texican** meant _academic_ success was seen as anti-black. This is a widespread belief. E.g., from a review of [John H. McWhorter’s book, \*Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684836696/102-9997458-4996147?vi=glance) > \*, \*\* he wasn’t quoting me there, i didn’t say that success was considered anti-black. Though I have read many cites of successful (conservative) blacks who report being accused of “acting white” by trying to achieve academically. ---
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/68 "2003-01-17T02:25:52Z")
Whatever happened to just being smart?? I am probably wrong , but I though going off to school was about getting an education , not being mired down in some politicaly correct"diversity" crap.Maybe people need special points for legacies,athletics,color,comunity service and underwater basket weaving because not everyone is smart enough to go off to a university. I shudder to think of what would happen if the only factor in getting into schools was the SAT score of the applicant. Who would all the stupid people place the blame on for them not getting accepted into school? What would happen if more students were forced to get by just on the merits of their inteligence, instead of how many bull shit non academicaly related points they racked up. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/69 "2003-01-17T02:40:05Z")
And you might be right, Burner if in fact SAT scores were perfect judges of intellectual ability. They’re not. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/70 "2003-01-17T03:30:01Z")
So, Bush wants to make getting into college _fair_, and this is a bad thing? :dubious: Okay. Why shouldn’t everyone just be judged equally? We are talking about ethnicity, for goodness sake. How is it that choosing (giving someone extra points) someone because he or she is black or indian is _not_ discriminatory, but if we decide to give extra points to someone who is white, it’s racist? Give me a F#@$&^% break… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/71 "2003-01-17T03:40:19Z")
Every time I hear the word “diversity” I cringe. We’re all supposed to worship at the alter of “diversity” these days. If we were talking about diversity if ideas, I’d say, OK, there is some benefit for colleges to have people with diverse viewpoints on campus. But we’re talking about skin color, for God’s sake. The problem is, it’s very hard to catagorize people according to their viewpoints. It’s supremely easy to catagorize them by race. Do we ever hear about having a balance of Republicans and Democrats on campus, or in the faculty? Capitalists vs Communists? No. We just look at skin color and last names, and it frankly makes me sick. ---
**Author:** ![Progressive\_left](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@Progressive\_left](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Progressive_left)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/72 "2003-01-17T04:25:30Z")
“How is it that choosing (giving someone extra points) someone because he or she is black or indian is not discriminatory, but if we decide to give extra points to someone who is white, it’s racist?” Because IMHO many people on this board think that Blacks and Hispanics aren’t as smart as whitey ---
**Author:** ![username\_for\_rent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@username\_for\_rent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/username_for_rent)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/73 "2003-01-17T04:38:28Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan: > \*\*An extremely important point here is that affirmative action proponents feel that “best qualified” can’t be determined according to raw test scores and grades. They are two measures, but they are not complete measures, and may in fact be FLAWED measures when it comes to certain students. > > As for finding a lawyer, I am sure you could find people who aced the LSAT but who are not good lawyers, for a number of reasons. “Best” isn’t well measured that way. Colleges and universities feel that way, at any rate.\*\* Is there any credible evidence that a diverse campus makes better lawyers than high test scores? I don’t know, I think I’d still hire the guy with the perfect LSAT. Merit says more than diversity. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/74 "2003-01-17T04:45:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Progressive\_left \* > Because IMHO many people on this board think that Blacks and Hispanics aren’t as smart as whitey Do you have a cite for that? I have noticed many things on this board, and rascism against non whites is NOT one of them! On another note, if Bush were to say, “my fellow Americans, it’s about time we start giving whites priority because the non whites have had thier turn. I plan to put this into action immediately, switching off every 20 years.” This would be ok with you? Somehow I doubt it. Wouldn’t the better solution be to make everyone equal? I mean, that’s what all the fuss is about, “making everyone equal”, but that is not what is exactly meant. What’s meant is, “give me special stuff because I am blah blah blah.” ---
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/75 "2003-01-17T05:06:22Z")
> [@](#): > > And you might be right, Burner if in fact SAT scores were perfect judges of intellectual ability. > > They’re not. THats right , I forgot something arbitrary like race is a better judge of intellectual ability than a standardized test. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/76 "2003-01-17T05:13:19Z")
—Legacies are a relatively small proportion of admitted students in comparison to those admitted under AA.— Dunno about that in all cases: [http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxxi/2001.01.19/opinion/p11bblue.html](http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxxi/2001.01.19/opinion/p11bblue.html) “According to Undergraduate Admissions, 14.1 percent of the matriculates in the class of 2004 had families with some kind of Yale affiliation. This pool constituted a larger percentage of the class than any single ethnic or racial minority group, radically differing from the demographic make-up of the country at large.” “those whose parents were affiliated with Yale College or one of the graduate schools were admitted to the class of 2004 at a rate of 29.8 percent. Over the past 10 years, the admittance rate for those whose families were Yale-affiliated varied to well above 30 percent. In contrast, Yale’s combined acceptance rate for all students last year was a mere 16.2 percent—and this was unusually high.” I did think Joe C got a nice zing when he quoted an ad from a conservative group in a Dartmouth paper: it demanded and end to “goals or quotas for any special group or category of applicants. Equal opportunity must be the guiding policy…based solely on individual performance.” Then, later in the ad: “Alumni sons and daughters should receive some special consideration.” ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/77 "2003-01-17T05:34:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BURNER \* > \*\*THats right , I forgot something arbitrary like race is a better judge of intellectual ability than a standardized test. \*\* No, but grades aren’t arbitrary. Evaluating essays isn’t arbitrary. Extracurricular activities and work experience aren’t arbitrary. Personal references and interviews aren’t arbitrary. However, taking one test on one day and thinking that I can summarize someone’s intellectual abilities and chances for academic success with a single number is profoundly arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/78 "2003-01-17T06:06:03Z")
Apos: First of all, you haven’t shown that the legacy candidates at Yale were admitted chiefly because they were legacies. But that’s really neither here nor there, becaues Yale is a PRIVATE school. We’re talking about state schools here, in particular U of M. I don’t care what Yale does with it’s money. I do care what a state school does with MY money. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/79 "2003-01-17T09:23:21Z")
There’s no such thing as “reverse discrimination”. There’s only discrimination. The fact that we seem to think descrimination is naturally only something whites do, and anything directed against whites is ‘reverse discrimination’ is sad. ---
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993/80 "2003-01-17T13:58:48Z")
> [@](#): > > No, but grades aren’t arbitrary. > > Evaluating essays isn’t arbitrary. > > Extracurricular activities and work experience aren’t arbitrary. > > Personal references and interviews aren’t arbitrary. > However, taking one test on one day and thinking that I can summarize someone’s intellectual abilities and chances for academic success with a single number is profoundly arbitrary. Aside from the grades part all of the other things here are totaly arbitrary and subjective. What does working or doing extra curricular activities have to do with whether or not they can do calculus or understand what is going on in a biology lab? Does someone who got a part time job durring H.S.or someone who was on the football team deserve more consideration that a person with a higher GPA that did neither?Personal refrences ,essays and interviews are even more subjective.Telling a college interviewer what they want to hear and having letters from past teachers to back up the lies isnt any kind of conclusive proof that they will do well as a chemistry major. I will conceed that a single test isnt the best measure of a persons potental , it does level the field. If the only thing that counted was the test score and the test was the same for everyone, then everyone would have an equal chance to study for and do well on the test. That to mee seems like a much better system than handing out points because of who your parents were or what color you are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-michigan-state-shouldnt-accept-blacks-over-whites-anymore/148993.md?page=5)