# Bush says: Settlements must go **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548 "2003-06-04T09:40:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/1 "2003-06-04T09:40:39Z")
President Bush says: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/2961292.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2961292.stm) > [@](#): > > \*\*The US president called on Israel to live up to its obligations under the roadmap - as the international peace plan for the Middle East is known. > > “Israel has got a responsibility. Israel must deal with the settlements,” he said. > > “Israel must make sure there is a contiguous territory the Palestinians can call home,” Mr Bush added. \*\* But Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/2961734.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2961734.stm) > [@](#): > > \*\*I cannot imagine that someone seriously thinks that it will be possible to evacuate settlements and cities with tens of thousands of residents. In my view, this is unrealistic, and I don’t think the Americans are thinking of this. \*\* So what exactly is Bush thinking of? Do these settlements with tens of thousand of Israelis include those illegally built after 1967? If so, will Israel let them go? If not, what action will America take? (And just to preempt anyone unhappy with the choice of the BBC as a cite, run a search on [http://news.google.com](http://news.google.com) and you will find Bush’s exact same quotes on hundreds of different news sources). ---
**Author:** ![tastycorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@tastycorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tastycorn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/2 "2003-06-04T10:42:56Z")
First, notice that shrub said “contiguous territory” (well, attempted to, I’m sure). In the original 67 lines, the palestinian state was not a contiguous territory. (kind of like school districts in the south) Also, much has been made of Sharons statements regarding pulling back some settlements. Here’s the problem Anytime the media mentions pulling back settlements, they always qualify the information with “built in the last two years” or something similar. Prediction: New lines get drawn (probably a nice oval, easy to build a wall around). Most existing settlements stay put but a few hard to protect outposts come down. Palestinians end up with about 13% of the country, get pissed, start another intifada, but this time the “contiguous” palestinian state is much easier to shut down. No pesky border crossings to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/3 "2003-06-04T11:43:15Z")
Well, you can spin it any way you want. Those suspicious of the US will doubtless read all manner of ominous intent into anything that President Bush ( I think “shrub” is a little childish) says. However, calling on Israel to act responsibly can only be a good thing, in my opinion (which is predominantly pro-Israel). And I am not aware of any physical law which would prevent the evacuation of a settlement. Guess we’ll have to wait and see what happens next. ---
**Author:** ![tastycorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@tastycorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tastycorn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/4 "2003-06-04T11:50:25Z")
Dude, everybody knows he is a little childish, but it didn’t stop him from getting into the white house. Sorry. Anyway, would it be out of line to ask for a slightly less safe prediction that “lets wait and see”? Plus, I’m not spinning it, just trying to read the spin thats already there. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/5 "2003-06-04T11:56:23Z")
Well interestingly, these comments were made somewhat “off the record” - as in, they weren’t specifically for public broadcast. Which suggests to me that they may even be more sincere than otherwise. I just cannot see how Sharon is going to be able to deal with Israel’s hard line right-wingers any more than Abbas with Palestine’s hard-line elements. But: this strikes me as quite a landmark statement for Bush to make. Ultimately, if Israel wants to remain “the good guy” in the eyes of mainstream America, it has to at some point comply with Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/6 "2003-06-04T12:01:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tastycorn \* > \*\*Dude, everybody knows he is a little childish, but it didn’t stop him from getting into the white house. > > Sorry. \*\* Yes, you are. As to the OP, I doubt Bush will force the disbanding of _all_ settlements. Since he did call for a ‘contiguous territory’, he most likely means those settlements which lie within the envisioned Palestine (I haven’t seen any proposed maps of this latest round of talks). And the Palestinians should take that offer. Wouldn’t it make more sense to get some of what you want now, and work for the rest later, than to get nothing now? Then again, there is a great chance this will all come to shit. It’s not like there was never a deal was in the works, only to have one party or the other walk away. ---
**Author:** ![tastycorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@tastycorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tastycorn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/7 "2003-06-04T12:10:50Z")
I deserved that. 🙂 Doesn’t it seem a little condescending to the Palistenians to tell them “better take what we decide to give ya, cause it’s the best we’re gonna do”. Does anyone happen to have a map of the existing settlements? If palestine were a lake, would the settlements be like little islands dotting the lake, or peninsulas extending in from the shore? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/8 "2003-06-04T12:11:23Z")
Plus, once the newer settlements are gone and if no new ones are being built, its percfectly obvious that Israel’s diplomatic situation will improse, while weakening that of the Palestinians. The Israelis can say: "See here, we’'ve doe the good thing you wanted, now make _them_ pay up as agreed. And if the Palestinians don’t then the Israelis have another stick in their arsenal they can pull out. I think its meant to bolster Israel in the eyes of European moderates, and show some good faith. And after all, if the terrorism continues (as it undoubtedly will) they can always say: OK, you’ve been naughty, so we’re going to re-open settlements. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/9 "2003-06-04T12:16:20Z")
[A map of current settlements.](http://www.fmep.org/reports/2002/sr0203.html#settlement2002) Gonna be trickier than I thought; They are all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/10 "2003-06-04T12:21:35Z")
Interestingly, in searching for [**this**](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/jewish_sett_west.stm) map, I also came across [**this**](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2943941.stm) article, dated just three weeks ago: > [@](#): > > \*\*Tuesday, 13 May, 2003, 08:55 GMT 09:55 UK > Sharon rejects settlement talks > > Prime Minister Sharon plays down settlement issue after meeting Colin Powell Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has declared that the question of Jewish settlements, one of the key issues in efforts to reach Middle East peace, is not up for imminent discussion. > > Mr Sharon, speaking to the Jerusalem Post, said all Israeli governments had gone ahead with settlements in some form, even during periods of peace diplomacy, and that the issue was therefore “not on the horizon”. > > He also said in an address to party members that he would not be put under pressure when he visits Washington to discuss a US-sponsored “roadmap” to peace, which specifically calls for Israel to stop expanding settlements in the West Bank and Gaza.\*\* For reference: here are some more maps - [http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in\_depth/world/2001/israel\_and\_palestinians/key\_maps/](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/11 "2003-06-04T12:22:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*[A map of current settlements.](http://www.fmep.org/reports/2002/sr0203.html#settlement2002) > > Gonna be trickier than I thought; They are all over the place. \*\* You mean you’ve been pontificating on the Middle East in thread after thread without even bothering to inform yourself of one of the most basic of facts of the case until this moment and now it is a surprise how much of the Occupied Terriitories have been purloined? That calls for at least one :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tastycorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@tastycorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tastycorn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/12 "2003-06-04T12:24:04Z")
Now, we can make a fairly educated guess as to how many of those settlements were built during this last intifada. (hint, not many, considering the map is already more than a year old) So, to create a contiguous territory among the islands, do you make one region of the lake “deep” and drain the water until there are no more islands, or do you get out the bulldozers and start making peninsulas? (another hint, lots of peninsulas mean an impossibly long border) Alternate theories? ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/13 "2003-06-04T12:26:52Z")
**Brutus** - that page you linked to is very interesting. It suggests to me that really, those settlers have been used as pawns by hard line elements in the Israeli goverment. It will be horrible for them to have to give up their homes, but they should never have been encouraged or allowed to settle there in the first place, under those terms. I hope that they will be properly compensated by the Israeli government for the loss of their properties. Or, that they might accept to become Palestinian citizens instead (though I doubt this). Assuming that site you linked to is reliable, it pretty much establishes that Israel brought in the settlements for the reasons of taking over the Palestinian land. This has brought suffering to the Palestinians, and now must bring suffering to the Israelis. A very sorry situation all round. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/14 "2003-06-04T12:30:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*Plus, once the newer settlements are gone and if no new ones are being built, its percfectly obvious that Israel’s diplomatic situation will improse, while weakening that of the Palestinians. The Israelis can say: "See here, we’'ve doe the good thing you wanted, now make _them_ pay up as agreed. And if the Palestinians don’t then the Israelis have another stick in their arsenal they can pull out. > I think its meant to bolster Israel in the eyes of European moderates, and show some good faith. And after all, if the terrorism continues (as it undoubtedly will) they can always say: OK, you’ve been naughty, so we’re going to re-open settlements. \*\* Well that has been the game for decades now. Israel offers up a little, to the Palestinians it is not nearly enough and they continue the attacks. Israel strikes back and encroaches even more on Palestinian territory and rights. One step back, two steps forward for Israel, never enough for the PA. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/15 "2003-06-04T12:32:45Z")
It’d improve my opinion of Bush et al. if they were to bust Israel’s balls over the settletments. What will actuallly happen and how far we are willing to go to see it done remains to be seen. I’m in favorof the Pax Americana as long as the power is weilded in a responsible, diplomatic and just way. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/16 "2003-06-04T12:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*…A very sorry situation all round. \*\* Indeed it is, which is why I remain pessimistic that a solution will ever be reached. (In our lifetime, at least.) I can’t realistically see the Israeli gov’t evicting all of those settlements, right or wrong. And I can’t see the Palestinians settling for anything less, right or wrong. The cynical side of me sees this whole venture as Bush’s version of Clinton’s version of Bush’s version of Reagan’s version of making a show of ‘trying for peace’; Pro forma, do something before the election. And **Tagos** , ;j right back atcha! ---
**Author:** ![tastycorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@tastycorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tastycorn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/17 "2003-06-04T12:51:44Z")
Does anyone have a map of Warsaw before the forced migration to the (contiguous) ghetto? (I’m looking, but can’t find anything yet) Are there any other historical precedents that could be used as a reference? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/18 "2003-06-04T12:58:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tastycorn \* > \*\*Are there any other historical precedents that could be used as a reference? \*\* Well, how about the creation of Israel? The territory that became Israel was home to a mix of Jewish and non-Jewish people. When Israel was created, some of the non-Jewish residents were forced out. Others were given the option of staying, and becoming citizens of Israel. Those who decided that they didn’t want to be minorities in a theocracy became refugees (they left “voluntarily,” according to many). ---
**Author:** ![Equal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Equal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/19 "2003-06-04T13:30:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\* And after all, if the terrorism continues (as it undoubtedly will) \*\* Yes, it will. The palestinians will alwasy attack Israel, even if they do get “their” own land(state). Those occupations belong to Israel, giving them up is a bad idea. We shall see. (no, i don’t have a cite) ---
**Author:** ![tastycorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@tastycorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tastycorn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/20 "2003-06-04T13:36:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Those occupations belong to Israel Of course, by that logic, I guess we own a few more oil wells now. Sweet. How do you do the “putz” thingy? Just asking… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548.md?page=2)