# Bush says: Settlements must go **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548 "2003-06-04T09:40:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/21 "2003-06-04T13:38:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Equal \* > \*\*Yes, it will. The palestinians will alwasy attack Israel, even if they do get “their” own land(state). \*\* By “the Palestinians” I’m sure you mean “an element of hardcore terrorists”. Otherwise I’m afraid that, in addition to the (hopefully minority) hardcore terrorists who will indeed fulfill your assertion, that broad-brush attitude is one that stands in the way of new peace initiatives. It is almost impossible for one side to trust the other\*, but without making that leap of faith, then the status quo will be maintained - and surely nobody wants that. - Look at Northern Ireland: the UUP and UDP still simply do not trust Sinn Féin (due to IRA non-disarmament). Yet, until recently, they were sitting in the same democratic chambers. Even while dissident republican elements are still at large. ---
**Author:** ![tastycorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@tastycorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tastycorn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/22 "2003-06-04T13:39:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, how about the creation of Israel? Good example, but I was kinda hoping for a non-jewish example. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/23 "2003-06-04T13:39:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Equal \* > \*\*Those occupations belong to Israel, … \*\* Not according to international law, nor according to the United Nations, nor, as far as I know, according to any government on earth, other than that of Israel (and even _they_ don’t come right out and say that the occupied territories belong to them). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/24 "2003-06-04T13:54:56Z")
Well, it’s good that those who have never seen a map of the settlements are now aware of what a mess that is. Even in the famous offer that was made 3yrs or so ago, these settlements were kept as Israeli land inside of the Palestinian state. I don’t see how that is workable. I’m afraid that the settlements have been nothing more than a bargaining chip for the Israelis from the beginning. Create something distasteful that can be “given up” for something else-- most likely the “right of return” for Palestinians. I do hope Bush takes a hard line on this issue. The I/P problem is spilling all over the globe as perhaps the biggest single geopolitical problem of the day. If the Israelis have to give up their precious settlements, I say: “Tough shit. Get your f\*\*\*ing people back inside your country and lets gets this thing solved.” And I hope Bush uses those exact words with Sharon. ---
**Author:** ![Equal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Equal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/25 "2003-06-04T13:55:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*_By “the Palestinians” I’m sure you mean “an element of hardcore terrorists”. Otherwise I’m afraid that, in addition to the (hopefully minority) hardcore terrorists who will indeed fulfill your assertion, that broad-brush attitude is one that stands in the way of new peace initiatives. It is almost impossible for one side to trust the other_, but without making that leap of faith, then the status quo will be maintained - and surely nobody wants that. > > [/size] \*\* agreed. So, how do the Palestinians get rid of the hardcore terroists? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/26 "2003-06-04T17:49:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*I hope that they will be properly compensated by the Israeli government for the loss of their properties. Or, that they might accept to become Palestinian citizens instead (though I doubt this). > \*\* I imagine that staying behind after the Israeli army pulls out would be equivalent to signing your own death warrant. ---
**Author:** ![FranticMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c68b51/32.png) [@FranticMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FranticMad)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/27 "2003-06-04T17:55:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*I do hope Bush takes a hard line on this issue. The I/P problem is spilling all over the globe as perhaps the biggest single geopolitical problem of the day. If the Israelis have to give up their precious settlements, I say: “Tough shit.” \*\* That’s how I feel. The settlements are influential on Al Qaeda recruitment (sorry, I don’t have proof since I am not a member of Al Qaeda), and are therefore a problem for the whole Western world. The lifestyle of the people who live in the settlements is unimportant compared to peace and the perception of fairness in the region. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/28 "2003-06-04T17:58:57Z")
Here’s a question: how long will it take Israel to finish building its various walls and fences along the border? My prediction: the settlement question will go unsettled (so to speak) until that time. Then Israel will say, “this is our border now.” End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/29 "2003-06-04T18:09:11Z")
The settlements are illegal (in spite of what **Equal** thinks) and they will have to go if Israel really has any interest in Peace or justice for the Palestinians. I think Bush is _saying_ the right things, but I wonder if he’s really willing to do anything to back up his words. If he tells Israel to move the settlements or lose all economic support from the US, that would mean something but talk is cheap. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/30 "2003-06-04T18:34:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > I think Bush is _saying_ the right things, but I wonder if he’s really willing to do anything to back up his words. If he tells Israel to move the settlements or lose all economic support from the US, that would mean something but talk is cheap. Ask Saddam Hussein if Bush is willing to back up his words. > [@](#): > > toad wrote: > Here’s a question: how long will it take Israel to finish building its various walls and fences along the border? My prediction: the settlement question will go unsettled (so to speak) until that time. Then Israel will say, “this is our border now.” End of story. If that’s the main stumbling block we should offer to build the wall for them. Just get it done! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/31 "2003-06-04T19:08:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Agreed. So, how do the Palestinians get rid of the hardcore terroists Since its the hardcore ones that are exerting authority, I don’t see this happening. They appear to be pretty popular, and effectively rule Palestine as local militia. Nothing is going to change until the Palestinians change their minds. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/32 "2003-06-04T19:27:01Z")
Sadly, another generation may have to go by b4 the i/p situation can become a part of the bad old days. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/33 "2003-06-04T20:12:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Ask Saddam Hussein if Bush is willing to back up his words This is not remotely analogous. It took no political courage to invade Iraq. Iraq did not have a massive base of public and political support in the US like Israel does, _especially_ from conservatives. Bush did not face opposition in congess from his own party for invading Iraq, he would face considerable opposition if he gets tough with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/34 "2003-06-04T20:14:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Early Out \* > \*\*Well, how about the creation of Israel? The territory that became Israel was home to a mix of Jewish and non-Jewish people. When Israel was created, some of the non-Jewish residents were forced out. Others were given the option of staying, and becoming citizens of Israel. Those who decided that they didn’t want to be minorities in a theocracy became refugees (they left “voluntarily,” according to many). \*\* Not a good parallel. Arabs who became citizens of Israel (putting aside the question of treatment of Palestinians during the War of Independence, e.g. Deir Yassin) have always been treated far better than experience indicates Jewish settlers would be treated under a Palestinian government. While this is of course speculation, I think it has a basis in what we’ve seen in the West Bank since the formation of Israel. Oh, and you might want to reconsider calling Israel a “theocracy”. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jjimm_ \*_By “the Palestinians” I’m sure you mean “an element of hardcore terrorists”. Otherwise I’m afraid that, in addition to the (hopefully minority) hardcore terrorists who will indeed fulfill your assertion, that broad-brush attitude is one that stands in the way of new peace initiatives. It is almost impossible for one side to trust the other_, but without making that leap of faith, then the status quo will be maintained - and surely nobody wants that. - Look at Northern Ireland: the UUP and UDP still simply do not trust Sinn Féin (due to IRA non-disarmament). Yet, until recently, they were sitting in the same democratic chambers. Even while dissident republican elements are still at large.\*\* The reality is rather more complex than that. While yes, it is only a minority of Palestinians who actually engage in or materially support suicide bombings, even if we assume a minority who morally support them (which is not even a good assumption in itself, as polls regularly indicate slight majorities supporting terrorist activities inside Israel), at base there is the ultimate moral issue of Palestinian acceptance of the basic legitimacy of Israel as a state. As long as the Palestinians generally reject Israel’s right to exist (and they do), the so-called “minority of hardcore terrorists” will always be a strong political and military force. NI is unfortunately not a good parallel, as there is no question there of the right of British people to live in Britain. I believe the Palestinian situation is fairly unique in that regard, as there is no other occupation I can think of (Lebanon, Cyprus, and also Kurdistan and Kashmir if you use the term “occupation” liberally) where the occupying power is considered by the occupied people to not even have a right to exist as a state in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/35 "2003-06-04T20:15:39Z")
And of course I screwed up the coding. Any mod want to move the bolded text inside the quote lines? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/36 "2003-06-04T20:28:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*This is not remotely analogous. It took no political courage to invade Iraq. Iraq did not have a massive base of public and political support in the US like Israel does, _especially_ from conservatives. Bush did not face opposition in congess from his own party for invading Iraq, he would face considerable opposition if he gets tough with Israel. \*\* Yeah, I was oversimplifying. But there are some similarities and “not remotely analogous” is as much of an oversimplification. The opposition to the war in Iraq was large (did you miss the demonstrations?) in the US and even larger in Europe. It took a **lot** of political courage to invade Iraq. The outcome could’ve been disasterous, and it still could be. You’re right about the strong support Israel has from the conservatives. But if the settlements are the main sutumbling block to a peace accord, I think he’d catch little if any flack for taking a hard line on that and backing it up. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/37 "2003-06-04T21:26:21Z")
This seems to square well with the [rumors which drifted my way](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=179980) about a month ago. Note **London\_Calling** ’s observation that this may be a form of payback to Tony Blair. Back then, the word was that much of this roadmap was non-negotiable, but I’m not sure I believe that. It seems to me as if Bush is shopping around the idea too much for it to be a _fait accompli_. There also appears to be a [divide and conquer](http://english.daralhayat.com/OPED/04-06-2003/Article-20030604-91ca04fe-c0a8-01fc-0044-ffb2e89dc02d/story.html) element to the overall plan, making the Syria/Lebanon/Golan question a separate measure to be conducted with the possible help of France. Israel needs the Golan Heights badly as a defensible border. My guess is that’s why Bush was explicit about naming the “Palestinian territories,” and it may even be a partial explanation for the hand-slapping the U.S. gave Syria recently–to keep them off the bargaining table with the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/38 "2003-06-04T21:41:17Z")
Just heard Sharon (I think it was Sharon) announce that he will begin to dismantle “unauthorized” settlements. Who knows what his definition of “unauthorized” is, but at least he used the plural so we know there are at least 2. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/39 "2003-06-04T22:01:02Z")
Unprovable hypothesis: If Reagan had been forceful in opposing the setlement policy back in the 80’s, the 9/11 attacks would never had occured. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/40 "2003-06-04T22:23:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\* > If that’s the main stumbling block we should offer to build the wall for them. Just get it done! \*\* I would think we should ask the Russians. After all, they’re the masters at building gigantic walls in no time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548.md?page=3)