# Bush says: Settlements must go **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548 "2003-06-04T09:40:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/41 "2003-06-04T22:27:28Z")
Here’s a concept: Let the settlements remain…but the settlers must agree to be under Palestinian rule just as Palestinians who enter Israel are under Israeli law. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/42 "2003-06-04T22:51:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Here’s a concept: Let the settlements remain…but the settlers must agree to be under Palestinian rule just as Palestinians who enter Israel are under Israeli law. \*\* At the very least those settlements whose territory was obtained by expropriation from Palestinian landowners should be returned, ideally to the Palestinians who owned them or their closest living relatives. Just out of curiosity, what about “settlers” who actually **bought** land from Palestinians in the WB/GS? If they obtained the land through legitimate channels, don’t they have the right to a government which will protect them? I’m not sure the PNA could be counted on to protect the lives and property of legitimate settlers. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/43 "2003-06-04T22:53:50Z")
**Monty** , I think that’s a heck of a good idea–but probably not for the same reasons. I’ll bet nothing would move those folks out faster than putting them under Palestinian “protection.” Seriously, I think those settlements were set up for the express purpose of being bargaining chips down the line. Maybe it’s time for the Israelis to put the chips on the table and see if the Palestinians blink. At the very worst, moving the settlers out will simply further prove what many of us suspect is the ugly truth behind the Palestinian position. Obviously, some of us need more proof than we already have and I’d love to see those settlers out of the crossfire when it goes down. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/44 "2003-06-04T22:57:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > At the very least those settlements whose territory was obtained by expropriation from Palestinian landowners should be returned, ideally to the Palestinians who owned them or their closest living relatives. Just out of curiosity, what about “settlers” who actually **bought** land from Palestinians in the WB/GS? If they obtained the land through legitimate channels, don’t they have the right to a government which will protect them? I’m not sure the PNA could be counted on to protect the lives and property of legitimate settlers. I’d say that’s the chance they have to take. Someone will pay the settlers for the land. Hell, I’ll pay them! Just get out of there. I think the details of how this is resolved can be figured out. The settlements have to go, or the settlers become citizens of “Palestine”. But I think the Israelis will hang on until the absolute last minute to use them as bargaining chips. ---
**Author:** ![tastycorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@tastycorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tastycorn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/45 "2003-06-04T22:58:41Z")
**SofaKing** Sorry, could you elaborate a bit more on the ugly truth behind the palistinian position? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/46 "2003-06-05T01:58:40Z")
> [@](#): > > It’d improve my opinion of Bush et al. if they were to bust Israel’s balls over the settletments. > What will actuallly happen and how far we are willing to go to see it done remains to be seen. You didn’t have to wait long for an answer: [url=]From Bush’s statement today: > [@](#): > > I welcome Prime Minister Sharon’s pledge to improve the humanitarian situation in the Palestinian areas and to begin removing unauthorized outposts immediately. I appreciate his gestures of reconciliation on behalf of prisoners and their families, and his frank statements about the need for territorial contiguity. > > As I said yesterday, the issue of settlements must be addressed for peace to be achieved. What Bush said yesterday: > [@](#): > > “Israel must deal with the settlements. Israel has to make sure that there is a continuous territory that Palestinians can call home.” And Sharon has agreed, surprisingly enough: > [@](#): > > We can also reassure our Palestinian partners that we understand the importance of territorial contiguity in the West Bank for a viable Palestinian state. Israeli policy in the territories that are subject to various negotiations with the Palestinians will reflect this fact. > We accept the principle that no unilateral actions by any party can prejudge the outcome of our negotiations. > In regard to the unauthorized outposts, I want to reiterate that Israel is a society governed by the rule of law. Thus, we will immediately begin to remove unauthorized outposts. Bush also announced today that the U.S. would help form and fund a new Palestinian police force. If this happens, then Israeli attacks on Palestinian police, and any attacks on Israelis by the new Palestinian police will become the U.S.'s business. I said before, BTW, that there would not be a meaningful peace until Saddam was gone. He was a huge security threat to Israel, and was one of the reasons why Israel was locked into an intransigent position. Now that he’s gone, and the U.S. has a massive military presence in the area, the Israelis can afford to start giving concessions. This would never have happened without the Iraq war. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/47 "2003-06-05T03:15:59Z")
Those maps don’t even tell the half of it. Remember that those settlements could nto exist if they were just dots. Instead, they are connected by an entire network of special highways that are “Israeli only” during most of the important commute times. These roads effectively cut “Palestine” to shreds, especially because even crossing past them requires waiting for hours at various checkpoints. The settlements themselves are certainly a stiking point in conceptual terms, but it is the authority and infastructure that they require Israel to maintain WITHIN the “state” of Palestine that makes the situation truly unworkable. If Bush pulls this off, then this, coupled with the 2nd Gulf War which made it possible, will be a major triumph not only for his administration but for the entire region. And the truly brilliant part is that people who hate Bush so much that they want him to fail are stuck either hoping for something evil, or hoping that he succeeds. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/48 "2003-06-05T03:16:34Z")
As I said before, talk is cheap. Israel has made promises before. I’m guessing they will remove very few if any settlements before using the next suicide bombing as an excuse to back out of the deal. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/49 "2003-06-05T11:46:33Z")
Suicide bombing is just an excuse? That’s one of the more incredible statements I’ve ever heard. You can’t make peace while one side is making war. Reasonable people should be able to agree that violence negates peace deals. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/50 "2003-06-05T12:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*As I said before, talk is cheap. Israel has made promises before. I’m guessing they will remove very few if any settlements before using the next suicide bombing as an excuse to back out of the deal. \*\* that is what my fear was, originally. But today’s article on the BBC seems to state that Sharon is equally committed to dismantling the settlements, as Abu Mazen is to halting all violence. Let’s just hope everybody will follow, and things will get straightened out. I think it helped that Abu Mazen told Ariel Sharon that the Palestinians do not minimize the thousands of years of suffering the Jewish people went through. I really really hope they camn work something out. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/2964862.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2964862.stm) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/2963906.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2963906.stm) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/51 "2003-06-05T12:14:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*You can’t make peace while one side is making war. Reasonable people should be able to agree that violence negates peace deals. \*\* Problem is, this stance allows a single murderous individual with a death-wish to derail the entire peace process. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/52 "2003-06-05T12:43:46Z")
Regarding the settlements:since most of them were built and paid for by US Taxpayer funds, how about returning the titles to the US taxpayers? Then we could lease them to the palestinians! Seroiusly, if there is ever to be peace, somebody has to define what is and is not Israeli territory…to let this situation go on is to invite disaster. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/53 "2003-06-05T13:33:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*Reasonable people should be able to agree that violence negates peace deals. \*\* If you are right, then I don’t understand why the palestinians accept to talk. Sorry but you asked for that one. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/54 "2003-06-05T13:38:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ralph124c \* > \*\*Regarding the settlements:since most of them were built and paid for by US Taxpayer funds, \*\* Cite, please? While it is true that the U.S. gives significant foreign aid to Israel, most of it, IIRC, comes in the form of loan guarantees and such for military usage, not for building settlements in the WB/GS. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/55 "2003-06-05T13:55:09Z")
Zev, the money does not go directly to the settlements that is sure (the latest loan guarntees, which were economic, not miltary aid, had a clause prohibiting that the money went to the settlements). However on the economic front it could be argued that the settlemnts would be unsustainable without US aid to Israel as their net cost is equivalent to half (or perhaps it was a third, I forget) the economic aid that the US gives to Israel. On the military side, it has been estimated that a third of Israel’s miltary budget is spent purely on protecting the settlements (exact figures are unavaiable as Israel’s miltary budget is a state secret). ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/56 "2003-06-05T14:31:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tastycorn \* > \*\ ***SofaKing** Sorry, could you elaborate a bit more on the ugly truth behind the palistinian position? \*\* No way, Jose. I’ve been down that road far too many times here. An elaboration of what I firmly believe (and what many here firmly _do not_ believe) will not add to the quality of this discussion. Suffice to say that I think a truly honest attempt by the Israelis to give peace a chance will bolster their position in the Middle East… no matter what the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/57 "2003-06-05T14:35:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > No way, Jose. I’ve been down that road far too many times here. An elaboration of what I firmly believe (and what many here firmly _do not_ believe) will not add to the quality of this discussion. Hard to argue with that! Actually, impossible to argue with that. So why even bring it up in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/58 "2003-06-05T14:39:09Z")
Zev-surely you are naive:the money that the US gibves Israel (over $3000 million/year) cannot be spent on settlements. However, that money allows OTHER money to be spent on these developments. THis is what is crazy-the US pays for: -settlers to build houses -the Israelis to demolish palestinian houses -settlers to be re-housed (once their settlements are abandonded) -the settlements to be demolished Sounds like the US taxpayers ought to be represented in this perpetual cycle of build, destroy, build! ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/59 "2003-06-05T14:40:39Z")
I see. And when you loan your sister money for her rent, do you feel you also therefore hold title to the food in her refrigerator? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548/60 "2003-06-05T15:13:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Hard to argue with that! Actually, impossible to argue with that. So why even bring it up in the first place? \*\* I think the idea behind this peace plan is to arrive at a point of stability even though the interested (and interfering) parties all have wildly different motivations. I’m expressing one (actually, two) of the potential motivations. _Debating the validity_ of those potential motivations is theoretical and will get us nowhere. Pretending that all parties involved are unified in their intentions, however, is equally unproductive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-says-settlements-must-go/179548.md?page=4)