# Bush Set to Veto Kids' Health Insurance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998 "2007-07-16T16:49:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/141 "2007-07-19T02:40:26Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] At best, you wish to take money from some people and give it to other people to help people that can’t afford health care. [/QUOTE] Such people do get medical treatment now. The cost is transfered from them to the others who can afford to pay by the hospital and doctors. Isn’t that taking money away from some people to pay the costs of others. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/142 "2007-07-19T02:45:07Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] One advantage of the central government taking on the job is that it evens out income disparities among the states. If the cultural norm of a state is to let low income workers go without health care until the situations gets so serious they go to an emergency room, I guess that’s OK. It does seem a tad shortsighted, though. People do get health care sooner or later. Many wait until they must go to an emergency room. And it all gets paid for somehow. It seems to me that paying for a rational system is a better choice. The cite in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8790877&postcount=106) gives one reason why Canadian per capita costs are lower than ours. Their administrative health care cost is 16.7% of the total per capita while ours is 31%. If we reduced ours to that same figure our cost would drop from about $3350 to about $2770. I also think that health experts agree that better preventive care would also reduce total cost by a rather large factor. [/QUOTE] Good points, and by the way, as to your earlier post, if my checkup cos and extra $5 so that you could have a healthy grandson than that would have been the best money I ever spent. One issue that I have though this. I go here for my healthcare: > **[Keystone Health – A full-service, family-centered, primary care facility.](https://keystonehealth.org/)** > > A full-service, family-centered, primary care facility. We’re in a rural area and this is a place that was set up for indigent migrant workers essentially without healthcare in response to some of the problems you describe. This is a nonprofit organization, and I get my healthcare alongside the poorest of the poor. The place is clean, organized, efficient, and top-notch. I go there simply because they are the best in the area. All around there are organizations like this, and free clinics and 501c3 organizations dedicated to providing prevantitive non emergency medical care at a cost available to all, even if you can’t afford anything. A big problem though is that organizations like this get underutilized. In our emergency room you will continue to find people that simply don’t seek medical care until they have an acute problem. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/143 "2007-07-19T02:49:10Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Such people do get medical treatment now. The cost is transfered from them to the others who can afford to pay by the hospital and doctors. Isn’t that taking money away from some people to pay the costs of others. [/QUOTE] Only in the same way that a bag of groceries costs me more than it would if the store didn’t have to deal with inventory shrinkage. The transferring of costs due to shrinkage or bad accounts payable to other customers is inherent in the market process and not specific to healthcare. It’s a question of degree and a different thing entirely than if you were to charge some customers more so that other customers could shop for free overtly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/144 "2007-07-19T03:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] Perhaps you may so, but as a party your actions don’t really support that… [/quote] Not a Democrat. We’ve covered this. Many times. > [@](#): > > …Democrats do not help poor people get healthcare. At best, you wish to take money from some people and give it to other people to help people that can’t afford health care…I don’t really see an moral high ground in being charitable with other people’s time and other people’s money… We’ll try and help you see it, therapists will be mustered and dispatched. Be nice to win you over, but its not that important, so long as you don’t get in the way. You have your faith, though you try to dress it up in rationaist clothes, but faith is what it is: that property rights are on a par with the most central human rights, that to tax away property in order to share it with the needy is as immoral as letting them go without. There is no more basis for your insistance that this is so than for mine that it is not. (It is not.) > [@](#): > > …Socialization **always** does this… Nonsense. Witnessing. > [@](#): > > …The defense “we want to help people” … I don’t need a defense, I do what I believe to be just and proper. Who needs a defense? Against _your_ accusations? > [@](#): > > …If you want to help people, go volunteer. I find the experience of sharing so fullfilling, so satisfying, that I cannot, in good conscience, permit you to go without it. No, don’t thank me, least I could do. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/145 "2007-07-19T05:41:08Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] Only in the same way that a bag of groceries costs me more than it would if the store didn’t have to deal with inventory shrinkage. The transferring of costs due to shrinkage or bad accounts payable to other customers is inherent in the market process and not specific to healthcare. It’s a question of degree and a different thing entirely than if you were to charge some customers more so that other customers could shop for free overtly. [/QUOTE] Really bad comparison. No one is sneaking into emergency rooms and pilfering medical treatment. And, come to think of it, so what? The plain fact is that those who can pay for treatment pay more in order to pay for those who can’t. I think it’s much better to regularize the process and get low income workers preventive health care which will reduce cost for all. At least the medical professionals think preventive care does reduce the number of serious, and costly illnesses. The treatment facilities that you describe in your post cost money to run. Someone pays for them so I don’t really see your point. Yes, many low income families have no idea that free, to them, treatment is available. The often don’t take newspapers or other sources of information. There needs to be a determined outreach so that they know about it. Why are you willing to pay toward my grandson but not some other total stranger? I am a stranger and you would still be paying the fin even if I had never heard of SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/146 "2007-07-19T12:52:40Z")
[From this morning’s WaPo:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/18/AR2007071801434.html?hpid=moreheadlines) > [@](#): > > President Bush yesterday rejected entreaties by his Republican allies that he compromise with Democrats on legislation to renew a popular program that provides health coverage to poor children, saying that expanding the program would enlarge the role of the federal government at the expense of private insurance. > > The president said he objects on philosophical grounds to a bipartisan Senate proposal to boost the State Children’s Health Insurance Program by $35 billion over five years. Bush has proposed $5 billion in increased funding and has threatened to veto the Senate compromise and a more costly expansion being contemplated in the House. > > “I support the initial intent of the program,” Bush said in an interview with The Washington Post after a factory tour and a discussion on health care with small-business owners in Landover. “My concern is that when you expand eligibility . . . you’re really beginning to open up an avenue for people to switch from private insurance to the government.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/147 "2007-07-19T14:07:31Z")
On “philosophical” grounds? Didn’t he tell us that Jesus was his favorite political philosopher? Yes, Mr. President, he did say “Suffer the little children” but that’s not _quite_ what he had in mind… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/148 "2007-07-19T15:35:34Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] Oh come off it. You know as well as I that the reason you are not providing a link to this imaginary explanatory post wherein you explain the source of your mindreading powers is because it **doesn’t exist.** [/QUOTE] If you’re now accusing **Liberal** of falsely quoting me, you should take this up with the mods, not with me. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/149 "2007-07-19T16:40:06Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] If you’re now accusing **Liberal** of falsely quoting me, you should take this up with the mods, not with me. [/QUOTE] Have you bought some insurance for poor kids yet, or do you still not want to? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/150 "2007-07-19T17:11:16Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] On “philosophical” grounds? Didn’t he tell us that Jesus was his favorite political philosopher? Yes, Mr. President, he did say “Suffer the little children” but that’s not _quite_ what he had in mind… [/QUOTE] Right. There is a difference, you know, between the public and private sphere, and a legitimate role for each to play. You have stated as much in the past on numerous occasions, and we differ on this merely in the degree of state involvement necessary. Of course, this is a big difference, and one that matters. But I’m sure you will agree that it is one over which people of goodwill may have legitimate differences of opinion. There are, as mentioned, numerous charities that do a lot of good work in this area - reducing poverty and providing medical care to many people. I’m sure that whatever your feelings on this subject, and your opinions on the legitimacy of a state role, the fact that the state plays a different role now makes the role of these charities quite important. Personally, I think they do a better job than government control would. But that’s neither here nor there. For now it suffices that you don’t need to support socialized medicine to be a good Christian. Render unto Caeser what is Caesar’s, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/151 "2007-07-19T17:18:30Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Right. There is a difference, you know, between the public and private sphere, and a legitimate role for each to play. [/quote] Wonder what Jesus would have said about that? I’m not being facetious here. It’s hard to imagine that the Jesus described in the Gospels would have considered it that important _how_ the needy were helped, relative to _that_ they get helped. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/152 "2007-07-19T17:55:32Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Wonder what Jesus would have said about that? I’m not being facetious here. It’s hard to imagine that the Jesus described in the Gospels would have considered it that important _how_ the needy were helped, relative to _that_ they get helped. [/QUOTE] So Jesus would have supported the government forcibly taking money from one person and using it to provide a low level of health care for people? Interesting. Please show me anywhere where Jesus advocated this type of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/153 "2007-07-19T18:30:18Z")
In Jesus’ time, tax collectors were the worst kind of scum. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/154 "2007-07-19T18:40:13Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] It’s hard to imagine that the Jesus described in the Gospels would have considered it that important _how_ the needy were helped, relative to _that_ they get helped. [/QUOTE] While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.” Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."Matthew 26:6-13 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/155 "2007-07-19T18:41:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] In Jesus’ time, tax collectors were the worst kind of scum. [/QUOTE] yeah, and I believe they were private contractors. They paid the ruler a fixed sum and then recovered it by collecting taxes from the common people. They more they collected the higher their profit. Ah, the free market. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/156 "2007-07-19T18:45:04Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Wonder what Jesus would have said about that? I’m not being facetious here. It’s hard to imagine that the Jesus described in the Gospels would have considered it that important _how_ the needy were helped, relative to _that_ they get helped. [/QUOTE] So, you think Jesus would say: _And verily I say unto you, that man is righteous who has his money taken from him to feed the poor, just as that man is righteous who feeds the poor himself. And my Father in heaven shall judge them the same and welcome them as equals into His house._ Of course, if Jesus really wanted the needy to be helped, He could just save us all the trouble and help them Himself. What’s the point of being omnipotent if you don’t use that omnipotence to end suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/157 "2007-07-19T18:45:42Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] yeah, and I believe they were private contractors. They paid the ruler a fixed sum and then recovered it by collecting taxes from the common people. They more they collected the higher their profit. Ah, the free market. [/QUOTE] What’s free about a market in which government fatcats partner with business tycoons? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/158 "2007-07-19T18:53:13Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] What’s free about a market in which government fatcats partner with business tycoons? [/QUOTE] The tax collectors, _publicans,_ bid competitively for the job of collecting taxes with the high bidder winning the job. So in order to get the job you had to bid high and in order to make money you had to collect as much tax as possible. Isn’t competitive bidding for a contract a free-market operation? ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/159 "2007-07-19T18:57:27Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] The tax collectors, _publicans,_ bid competitively for the job of collecting taxes with the high bidder winning the job. So in order to get the job you had to bid high and in order to make money you had to collect as much tax as possible. Isn’t competitive bidding for a contract a free-market operation? [/QUOTE] Point me to a free market theorist who supports the notion that businessmen can contract with the government for the power to forcibly take as much of people’s property as the businessmen want, and then we can talk. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/160 "2007-07-19T19:03:18Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] The tax collectors, _publicans,_ bid competitively for the job of collecting taxes with the high bidder winning the job. So in order to get the job you had to bid high and in order to make money you had to collect as much tax as possible. Isn’t competitive bidding for a contract a free-market operation? [/QUOTE] As soon as you use the word “tax”, you’re no longer talking about the free market. The free market is the trading of goods and services among individuals making voluntary choices. Ain’t nothin’ voluntary about taxes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998.md?page=9)