# Bush Set to Veto Kids' Health Insurance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998 "2007-07-16T16:49:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/161 "2007-07-19T19:06:00Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] What’s free about a market in which government fatcats partner with business tycoons? [/QUOTE] That’s an important point that seems to be lost on a lot of people around here. Although I wouldn’t normally put \*\*David \*\*in that category, he seems to have mistaken the free market with government granting special favors to certain people. A government which fosters a free market should be just as loath to help businessmen as it is to hinder them. It isn’t call “hands off” for nothing! ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/162 "2007-07-19T19:14:34Z")
Cry foul all you want to guys, the tax collectors who were called “scum” above were private contractors who bid competitively for their jobs. Equivocating about what that job was is just blowing dust. Even free-market enthusiasts will admit that governments need revenue and taxes are a way to get them. To pretend like taxes are some sort of outrageous coercion is way out there. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/163 "2007-07-19T19:26:42Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Cry foul all you want to guys, the tax collectors who were called “scum” above were private contractors who bid competitively for their jobs. [/quote] And in return for that bid, the government let them steal money. Again, explain how that is a free market? > [@](#): > > Equivocating about what that job was is just blowing dust. Even free-market enthusiasts will admit that governments need revenue and taxes are a way to get them. Sure, and if we were talking about government contracting out in order to have a private company collect the taxes that were actually due to the government, I’d be fine with it. However, what you are describing has nothing to do with taxes. Basically, the government is putting up for bid a license to steal. It’s not a license to collect taxes, since these “tax” collectors take whatever they want. > [@](#): > > To pretend like taxes are some sort of outrageous coercion is way out there. I’ll certainly admit that taxes are necessary, but they are also obtained through coercion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/164 "2007-07-19T19:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] …Matthew 26:6-13 [/QUOTE] A good point, **Lib**! We must be careful to exempt such persons who can walk on water and raise the dead. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/165 "2007-07-19T19:57:01Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Cry foul all you want to guys, the tax collectors who were called “scum” above were private contractors who bid competitively for their jobs. Equivocating about what that job was is just blowing dust. Even free-market enthusiasts will admit that governments need revenue and taxes are a way to get them. To pretend like taxes are some sort of outrageous coercion is way out there. [/QUOTE] Well, it’s coercion for sure. Whether it’s “outrageous” or not is a matter of opinion. But **David** , taxes simply aren’t part of “the market”, whether they are necessary or not. How the government goes about collecting those taxes is up to the government. But whenever you force someone to do something, like pay taxes, you aren’t operating on market principles. Doesn’t make that good or bad, per se, just different. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/166 "2007-07-19T20:39:31Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] In Jesus’ time, tax collectors were the worst kind of scum. [/QUOTE] And yet Jesus paid taxes. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/167 "2007-07-19T20:42:37Z")
What the Gospel of Matthew _didn’t_ say: > [@](#): > > While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on her own head as he was reclining at the table. > > When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.” > > Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to herself. The poor you will always have with you, but she will not always have her beauty. When she poured this perfume on her body, she did it to feel good about herself. I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."Not Matthew 26:6-13 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/168 "2007-07-19T20:48:58Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] So, you think Jesus would say: _And verily I say unto you, that man is righteous who has his money taken from him to feed the poor, just as that man is righteous who feeds the poor himself. And my Father in heaven shall judge them the same and welcome them as equals into His house._ [/quote] He’d certainly think that man was more righteous than the man who had similar money taken from him to buy guns and bombs, and pay for Halliburton’s no-bid contracts and Archer Daniels Midland’s agricultural subsidies. > [@](#): > > Of course, if Jesus really wanted the needy to be helped, He could just save us all the trouble and help them Himself. What’s the point of being omnipotent if you don’t use that omnipotence to end suffering. Damned if I know. I’ve got theories, but needless to say, they’re unfalsifiable. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/169 "2007-07-19T20:54:53Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] Point me to a free market theorist who supports the notion that businessmen can contract with the government for the power to forcibly take as much of people’s property as the businessmen want, and then we can talk. [/QUOTE] I don’t know what free-market theorists think of the idea, but we’ve [privatized certain areas of law enforcement](http://www.i2i.org/main/article.php?article_id=850), allowing businessmen to take people’s lives on behalf of the government. Which as a side effect takes _all_ of their property from them, since as the saying goes, you can’t take it with you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/170 "2007-07-19T20:59:19Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] He’d certainly think that man was more righteous than the man who had similar money taken from him to buy guns and bombs, and pay for Halliburton’s no-bid contracts and Archer Daniels Midland’s agricultural subsidies. [/quote] You think so? Neither guy actually did anything at all. Both just had the money taken, and we don’t know whether they approved or disapproved of either action. I think it’s pretty clear that Jesus was concerned with people’s intent-- didn’t he say something about committing a sin just by thinking about the sinful action? And where did you get the idea that Halliburton no-bid contracts were on par with ADM’s agricultural subsidies. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/171 "2007-07-19T21:03:42Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You think so? Neither guy actually did anything at all. Both just had the money taken, and we don’t know whether they approved or disapproved of either action. I think it’s pretty clear that Jesus was concerned with people’s intent-- didn’t he say something about committing a sin just by thinking about the sinful action? [/quote] So it was at least as bad. Unless anyone thinks Jesus would condemn modern democracies as fundamentally evil for the very idea that the majority can make decisions for all, including decisions about taxation, then this is a kinda silly digression anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/172 "2007-07-19T21:06:39Z")
And those who _do_ believe this, and consider themselves followers of Jesus, why haven’t you moved to someplace less evil? There are an ever-increasing number of failed states with plenty of areas to live where the taxman’s authority is nonexistent. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/173 "2007-07-19T21:46:57Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Isn’t competitive bidding for a contract a free-market operation? [/QUOTE] Yes, but that’s an induction fallacy. Competitive bidding for a contract CAN be a free market operation, just as a bovine CAN be a cow. But if you’re competing to buy slaves or to run a protection racket, that’s a rat. And no rat is ever a bovine. > [@](#): > > To pretend like taxes are some sort of outrageous coercion is way out there. When peaceful honest people are conscripted, it is an ethical abomination. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Not Matthew 26:6-13 A more disingenuous dodge could scarcely be conceived. The scripture you desecrated directly contradicts your assertion that Jesus is more concerned that the poor be fed than He is with how. It is remarkable that you would cast Him as advocating that the end justifies the means. That has been the philosophy of history’s most terrible tyrants, including President Bush. > [@](#): > > And yet Jesus paid taxes. So do I. I don’t reckon Jesus cared to be sent to prison or worse. He had better things to do. He also dined with whores and forgave adultresses, but he wasn’t advocating prostitution and infidelity. > [@](#): > > And those who do believe this, and consider themselves followers of Jesus, why haven’t you moved to someplace less evil? Why haven’t you bought health insurance for some poor children? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/174 "2007-07-19T22:37:45Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Yes, but that’s an induction fallacy. Competitive bidding for a contract CAN be a free market operation, just as a bovine CAN be a cow. But if you’re competing to buy slaves or to run a protection racket, that’s a rat. And no rat is ever a bovine.? [/QUOTE] So if a merchant auctions off overdue debts to collection agencies that’s free market but if a ruler auctions off tax debts to private collectors that’s not free market. You are doing your best to define your way to victory. It might work with some here but I don’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/175 "2007-07-19T23:10:07Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] So if a merchant auctions off overdue debts to collection agencies that’s free market but if a ruler auctions off tax debts to private collectors that’s not free market. You are doing your best to define your way to victory. It might work with some here but I don’t buy it. [/QUOTE] Apparently, you don’t know what “ruler” means. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/176 "2007-07-20T00:59:33Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] The treatment facilities that you describe in your post cost money to run. Someone pays for them so I don’t really see your point. [/quote] I pay for it. I pay a higher cost than someone less fortunate, and am glad to do it, because I know my money is going where it needs to go with efficiency. > [@](#): > > Yes, many low income families have no idea that free, to them, treatment is available. The often don’t take newspapers or other sources of information. There needs to be a determined outreach so that they know about it. There are. The problem is that some people are poor or otherwise disadvantaged because they make poor choices. Horses and water and all that. > [@](#): > > Why are you willing to pay toward my grandson but not some other total stranger? I am a stranger and you would still be paying the fin even if I had never heard of SDMB. The key point is that I have no objection to paying higher health care costs so that those that are less able to pay can afford reasonable care. The hospital charges me a little bit more, somebody else a little bit less who wouldn’t otherwise be able to afford it. Everybody gets paid and everybody gets the care they need. To me this is very different from directly taxing me and creating a socialized health care system administered by a bloated and incompetant bureacracy that will waste the money, reduce the level of care and limit my choices, reducing freedom. That way we all lose. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/177 "2007-07-20T01:12:50Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] You have your faith, though you try to dress it up in rationaist clothes, but faith is what it is: that property rights are on a par with the most central human rights, [/quote] **All** rights are property rights. A violation of rights is simply the taking away of another’s property. The most fundamental rights have to do with the most fundamental properties, the mind and the body that contains it. > [@](#): > > that to tax away property in order to share it with the needy is as immoral as letting them go without. There is no more basis for your insistance that this is so than for mine that it is not. (It is not.) I have two kidneys. I only need one. Do you think the government has the right to tax me by taking one of my kidneys and giving it to somebody else who needs it? > [@](#): > > Nonsense. Witnessing. Bullshit. I’m defending my assertions. > [@](#): > > I don’t need a defense, I do what I believe to be just and proper. Who needs a defense? Against _your_ accusations? Your beleif does not impress me. It was not long ago that people beleived black people were subhuman and that it was just and proper to hold them as slaves. You accuse me of a faith-based rationale, but in reality that’s all that your offering, and, like most faith-based rationales it’s as irrational and disprovable as intelligent design. > [@](#): > > I find the experience of sharing so fullfilling, so satisfying, that I cannot, in good conscience, permit you to go without it. On the contrary, your plans would actually prevent me from doing so. You would tax me and use my money wastefully, depriving of me dollars that I can use efficiently. I pick and choose what I give to and where I volunteer. If you taxed me I would have less time and money to offer than I do now. Until you care to take the effort to find out where I give and I’d advise you to come off your high horse as I’ll wager I provide a lot more than you do. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/178 "2007-07-20T02:03:13Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Apparently, you don’t know what “ruler” means. 😉 [/QUOTE] :dubious: > [@Scylla](#): > > To me this is very different from directly taxing me and creating a socialized health care system administered by a bloated and incompetant bureacracy that will waste the money, reduce the level of care and limit my choices, reducing freedom. That way we all lose. There are a number of unsupported assumptions here. I don’t think that a “bloated and incopetent bureacracy” is a feature of government run health plans in general. In fact our private enterprise health care system spends 31% of the total percapita medical expense on administration while Canada’s government plan spends only 16.7% for the same thing. However, it does seem that the mantra “socialized medecine” has a strong effect even though many nations have socialized medecine and their national health condition is no worse than ours and in some cases better as shown by such things as infant mortality numbers. > [@Renob](#): > > Sure, and if we were talking about government contracting out in order to have a private company collect the taxes that were actually due to the government, I’d be fine with it. However, what you are describing has nothing to do with taxes. Basically, the government is putting up for bid a license to steal. It’s not a license to collect taxes, since these “tax” collectors take whatever they want. The post to which I was responding referred to the “tax collectors of Jesus’ time” or words to that effect, and I took them at face value. > [@](#): > > I’ll certainly admit that taxes are necessary, but they are also obtained through coercion. All debts are collectable through coercion. Just try not paying you utility bill. Taxes are what the government charges each citizen for the goods and services that the government provides. You may argue that you don’t want many of the services but that’s specious. We survive in societies that must meet the needs for goods and services for all, not just for you. Whether you agree with the Roman system or not, or think that it was honest or not, putting the collection of taxes up for bids was a free market exercise. The _publicans_ were independent contractors who provided a service to the Roman government in exchange for money. I also think the Roman _publican_ system was bad but it was used for all sorts of government activities and seemed to work reasonably well. Rome lasted a long time and I don’t recall a lot of revolutions by Roman citizens against their lot. Of course the average Roman didn’t have the same expectations as we do. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/179 "2007-07-20T02:52:26Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] **All** rights are property rights. A violation of rights is simply the taking away of another’s property. The most fundamental rights have to do with the most fundamental properties, the mind and the body that contains it… [/quote] Certainly a novel definition of the nature of human rights. Hume? Locke? Burke? **Scylla**? Really, sez who? > [@](#): > > …I have two kidneys. I only need one. Do you think the government has the right to tax me by taking one of my kidneys and giving it to somebody else who needs it?.. Mercy, what a wretched analogy! We’re talking about insurance plans here, how the hell do you take 5% of a kidney and disperse it over 300 million citizens? > [@](#): > > …Bullshit. I’m defending my assertions… With more assertions. Looks like turtles all the way down, from here. > [@](#): > > …You accuse me of a faith-based rationale, but in reality that’s all that your offering, and, like most faith-based rationales it’s as irrational and disprovable as intelligent design… Sure! I even said so, couple posts back. I hold certain truths to be self-evident, as do you. What of it? > [@](#): > > …On the contrary, your plans would actually prevent me from doing so. You would tax me and use my money wastefully, depriving of me dollars that I can use efficiently… Two unproveable assumptions, one long sentence. It is an article of faith amongst some, and seemingly shared by you, that any government enterprise must, by some metaphysical force, be doomed to inefficiency. If that is not an unproveable dogma, its getting pretty darn close. In terms of inherent inefficiency, a for profit insurance enterprise has one built right in, its the profit motive. Some of the money is siphoned off to pay investors, however modest that sum may be, it is still lost in terms of effect. And, of course, a for profit enterprise is built to maximize that “inefficiency”, by any means they can get away with. Even if a government system has some inherent deficiency (being comprised of humans, a pretty safe bet…), there is no built in mechanism for _maximizing_ that deficiency. > [@](#): > > …Until you care to take the effort to find out where I give and I’d advise you to come off your high horse as I’ll wager I provide a lot more than you do. Pure _ad hominem_. My abundant character flaws have no bearing whatever on the argument. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998/180 "2007-07-20T02:54:09Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] When peaceful honest people are conscripted, it is an ethical abomination. [/quote] How about shiny happy people? Can they still hold hands if they’ve been drafted? > [@](#): > > A more disingenuous dodge could scarcely be conceived. The scripture you desecrated… Hey, guess what, everyone, I’ve _desecrated a scripture!!_ I didn’t think I had it in me. 😃 > [@](#): > > I don’t reckon Jesus cared to be sent to prison or worse. He had better things to do. He also dined with whores and forgave adultresses, but he wasn’t advocating prostitution and infidelity. Sounds to me that by dining and forgiving, he was advocating dining and forgiveness. JMHO, YMMV, LBJ, IRT, USA, LSD. > [@](#): > > Why haven’t you bought health insurance for some poor children? [Your persistence has been rewarded](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=429549). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-set-to-veto-kids-health-insurance/411998.md?page=10)