# Bush showing himself to be more than the Christian "cheerleader" he is taken for **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391 "2001-11-20T14:41:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/1 "2001-11-20T14:41:09Z")
[Bush hosts Ramadan dinner for support](http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0111/20/m96.html) Ambassadors & diplomats from 53 Muslim nations attended a break-the-fast dinner hosted by George W. Bush. Imam Abdullah Muhammad Khouj led the group in prayer, with which neither Bush nor John Ashcroft had any apparent problems. I’ve seen Bush criticized on this board about not respecting or reaching out to other faiths. Well, he’s coming around. The debate – do such gestures affect Bush’s standing among American Muslims? Among Muslims worldwide? My take is that it might, but sparsely. Really, only the higher-ups in the governments of Islamic nations would even be aware of this goodwill gesture. Many who do know about it may dismiss it as tokenism. Still, I for one appreciate the effort. I feel this story has gone woefully under-reported. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/2 "2001-11-20T15:30:47Z")
Key word in your post - “gesture.” I give this about as much significance as his pardoning of the Thanksgiving turkey. God bless America. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/3 "2001-11-20T15:42:29Z")
IANAMuslim, but let’s see, it’s been 2.5 months since 9/11 and this would be the first public time Bush has done “something” muslim. Please correct me if I’ve missed him doing something else. Everything I’ve seen has called upon a Christian god. If I’m mistaken, please let me know. Otherwise, color me pretty unimpressed on the reaching out thing. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/4 "2001-11-20T18:03:10Z")
Just a factoid to put under your hats: the Christian God and the Muslim Allah, according to everything I’ve heard and read, are the same. Not on some higher plane where everything is rosy, but literally, technically, per experts in the Muslim faith. Muslims and Christian condiments and side orders differ, but the the entree is the same. In exactly the same way that the Jewish god and the Christian god are the same god. I’m not commneting one way or another on George’s dinner party, just on this fact. stoid ---
**Author:** ![Tretiak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Tretiak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tretiak)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/5 "2001-11-20T18:08:01Z")
I guess for some people he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/6 "2001-11-20T18:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > **the Christian God and the Muslim Allah, according to everything I’ve heard and read, are the same.** I know where you’re coming from on this **stoid** , but there are a lot of Christians out there who would disagree with that statement. Of course, I’m nontheist, so I think Allah & G-d are both the same. Human inventions to explain the unexplainable. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/7 "2001-11-20T18:13:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > \*\*I give this about as much significance as his pardoning of the Thanksgiving turkey. > \*\* If Bush’s popularity with Muslims matches his popularity with turkeys, then he’s doing OK. 😛 (just kidding.) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/8 "2001-11-20T18:27:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Just a factoid to put under your hats: the Christian God and the Muslim Allah, according to everything I’ve heard and read, are the same. Not on some higher plane where everything is rosy, but literally, technically, per experts in the Muslim faith. Yes and no. From what I’ve been reading (Karen Armstrong’s biography of Muhammad and her short book on the history of Islam), Allah was the chief god of the pre-Islamic Arab pantheon, who was identified with the Christian god, himself a deity was promoted from a polytheistic pantheon, by the Prophet. So, yes, Allah is worshipped by Muslims as the God of the Bible, but as a result of cultural borrowing from Judaism and Christianity, mixed with native polytheism. From this [site](http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ISLAM/PRE.HTM): > [@](#): > > The religion of the pre-Islamic Arabs was a mixture of Bedouin polytheism, Judaism, and a little bit of Christianity. The pre-Islamic Arabs worshipped three goddesses, al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat, who were all daughters of one god, Allah—this one god was probably derived from the monotheistic religions of Judaism and Christianity. Mecca was the center of this religion with its Ka’ba, or “Cube,” which served as the temple for the religion ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/9 "2001-11-20T18:41:05Z")
It’s primarily a PR gesture IMO, but there’s nothing wrong with that – _any_ positive effort to reach out to Muslems can only be a good thing. As for Bush pardoning of the Thanksgiving turkey, I’m slightly surprised – the guy didn’t have any qualms about executing mentally retarded folks on death row, after all. Maybe the turkey paid him off? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/10 "2001-11-20T20:21:47Z")
I’ve been thinking that if we really want to win the war for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world Bush should just convert. I’m sure we’d have no problem getting the word out on that one. And would have the advantage of being a total surprise to everyone (including ObL and his cronies). It seems like there should be some historical precedent for this in the waves of invasions of Muslim lands. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/11 "2001-11-20T20:40:07Z")
If he had a Non-Prayer Breakfast with some atheist leaders, I’d be even more impressed. 😛 That’s what I call reaching out to minority voters. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/12 "2001-11-20T21:39:05Z")
> [@](#): > > the guy didn’t have any qualms about executing mentally retarded folks on death row, after all I think that’s Bill Clinton and Rickey Ray Rector you are thinking about. This is not the first time Bush has reached out to Muslims. Didn’t he attend a mosque for a service? As for the gesture comment, what else can it be by a non muslim? Bush is a Christian and has made no bones about that. For him to attend or host a prayer breakfast with those of other faiths is nothing but a gesture, and there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s showing respect for their faith. I’m not Catholic but when I attend mass, I make sure to kneel and stand/sit when everyone else does. That is a gesture. ---
**Author:** ![NPavelka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/edb3f5/32.png) [@NPavelka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NPavelka)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/13 "2001-11-20T22:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe the turkey paid him off? 😉 \*\* It wasn’t exactly a “pay-off” [http://www.bobandtom.com/gen3/pres\_turkey.htm](http://www.bobandtom.com/gen3/pres_turkey.htm) Nick ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Gazoo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/14 "2001-11-20T22:27:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*It’s primarily a PR gesture IMO, but there’s nothing wrong with that – _any_ positive effort to reach out to Muslems can only be a good thing. > > As for Bush pardoning of the Thanksgiving turkey, I’m slightly surprised – the guy didn’t have any qualms about executing mentally retarded folks on death row, after all. > > Maybe the turkey paid him off? 😉 \*\* Did you miss the meaning of \*\* december\*\*'s post?? The turkey is a Christian Conservative! Or Christian Conservatives are turkeys (I’m not sure which ;)) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/15 "2001-11-20T22:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > \*\*Key word in your post - “gesture.” > > I give this about as much significance as his pardoning of the Thanksgiving turkey. > > God bless America. \*\* Aren’t gestures the core of most religions? And aren’t gestures therefore the most appropiate way to show respect for other religions? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/16 "2001-11-20T22:52:45Z")
I for one am very happy to see this happening. I don’t think it would be happening under just any circumstances, but I also think that is true of his kowtowing to the religious (Christian) right: political circumstances, especially within the Republican party, dictated that, and our current situation gives him more leeway to make gestures such as described in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/17 "2001-11-21T01:02:32Z")
It’s a gesture, but it’s a useful and good gesture to make, just like every time he said in a speech following 9/11 that muslims are generally peaceful, that Islam is not an essentially terrorist religion, and that terrorists are political creatures using Islam for their own ends. It doesn’t really change anything, but it highlights what is correct to emphasize, and perhaps makes it harder for those who hate muslims to act publicly. Now if Dubya **observed Ramadan exactly as a muslim would** , that would be an extremely meaningful act that would totally turn around my opinion of him. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/18 "2001-11-21T04:08:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > \*\* > Now if Dubya **observed Ramadan exactly as a muslim would** , that would be an extremely meaningful act that would totally turn around my opinion of him. \*\* Since A) He’s not a muslim B) the majority of citizens in the country he leads are not muslim C) the majority of muslims in the situation are _the enemy_ why on Earth should he observe Ramadan? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/19 "2001-11-21T05:21:28Z")
As a Christian, I would have bowed my head and prayed to God in my own way, probably blocking out what was being said around me. If I am in a place that does something differently than me, I may do something similar, like bow my head; _Not_ out of respect, but because that is what is expected of me. I don’t claim to know what Bush was thinking at the time of the islamic prayer, but that may be what he did. You are not a true Christian if you are open to exploring different religions. Bush has to be tolerant, he’s the President of a multi-cultural nation. I do believe so far that Bush is a true Christian. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Stoid > the Christian God and the Muslim Allah, according to everything I’ve heard and read, are the same. I do not believe that Christians and muslims believe in the same God. After Ishmael, the son Abraham, I think that some truths were distorted. There was a lot of resentment. There is intense hatred of the Arabs toward the Jews and it all stems from this time. After such resentment, people tend to alter truths to be different. I believe at one time they may have believed in the one true God. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391/20 "2001-11-21T05:39:24Z")
JerseyDiamond: > [@](#): > > You are not a true Christian if you are open to exploring different religions. If true, this is very sad for the Christians. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-showing-himself-to-be-more-than-the-christian-cheerleader-he-is-taken-for/94391.md?page=2)