# Bush signs bill for hybrid tax credit: Thoughts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920 "2005-08-20T21:41:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/41 "2005-08-22T01:29:36Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > We should be looking more towards market based solutions, which I thing are much more straightforward for transportation than most other areas. A gas tax is a fairly efficient way of spreading transportation costs fairly (ie, by amount of use), since part of the 'cost" is the pollution produced. Transportation spending (for automobile support) shoudl be funding directly from gas taxes and not from general revenues. I know we do this to some extent, but not nearly as much as we should. If people want to buy gas guzzling vehicles and are willing to foot the bill, then let them. The market will shift to more gas efficient vehicles if people have to directly pay the cost of the infrastructure to support that vehicle and can make informed decisions about how they want to spend their money. I tend to agree that this is probably the **best** solution in principle. I am sensitive to **ExTank** ’s concerns about the impact on the poor but one has to recognize that such a tax could be used to raise a significant amount of revenue…and I think that revenue, or at least a good portion of it, should be used to offset the effects of the tax on the poor through lower other taxes for them and/or increased assistance. Unfortunately, this approach seems to be a non-starter politically, whereas things like tax credits for hybrids are so politically acceptable that Republicans and Democrats alike support them. By the way, it is worth noting that even this fairly hefty tax credit is still small potatoes compared to [the tax deduction](http://www.selfemployedweb.com/suv-tax-deduction.htm) for “small business owners” (which I have heard can mean almost anyone in certain professions like doctors or lawyers) for buying the most gargantuan SUVs. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/42 "2005-08-22T01:46:07Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Er, that sounds pretty cool. What is it? It’s [The Ecomobile](http://motorcyclecity.com/bikewatch/Ecomobile/). They started out trying to make a cheap commuter version, which didn’t go over at all. So now they’re aiming it at the high end luxury market. Accordingly, it’s more powerful, a little heavier (1500 lbs), and only get around 50-60 mpg. But certainly the concept could be employed for much smaller commuter vehicles. Another alternative which is also on the market for those who want a very light, very efficient commuter car is the [Smart Car](http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/). I’m actually starting to see quite a few of these on the streets of Edmonton, and they are coming to the U.S. This thing sounds exactly like the kind of car **DougC** was talking about. Roughly 60 HP and 1600 lbs, the Smart car gets close to 60 mpg, and some versions can get as high as 80 mpg. One of our guys at work owns one, and he loves it. For him, it makes a lot of sense since he commutes almost 100 miles a day. The car is also much cheaper than the cheapest hybrid. And they’re under $20,000. This class of cars can even be lots of fun. The Lotus Elise is one of the best handling cars in the world, and because it’s so light it can do 0-60 in under 5 seconds and still get 30 mpg. The [Smart Roadster](http://www.smart.com/-snm-0150526428-1121782077-0000027168-0000009172-1124675203-enm-is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/mpc-uk-content-Site/en_UK/-/GBP/SVCPresentationPipeline-Start;sid=omWtiipi4Q-timlrjOYlgqhoPF6lbbRZqoLunisN?Page=issite%3a%2f%2fmpc-uk-Site%2fmpc-uk%2ecom%2fRootFolder%2fsmart%2fmodelle%2fsmartroadster%2fausstattung%2f45kw%2fhighlights%2epage) isn’t particularly fast, but at 1800 lbs I’ll bet it handles like a Go-Kart. And with only 80hp, I’ll bet it gets great fuel economy. You can even get a ‘Brabus’ version with better handling suspension and a turbocharger. So there are already plenty of options out there for people who want very small, cheap, high efficiency cars. But they just aren’t selling all that well. But that could easily change. If gas goes up a dollar or two more a gallon, you’ll probably start seeing a lot more of these on the roads. Daimler-Chrysler, who imports Smart cars into Canada, says they could now sell 5,000 a year in our market. That’s a lot. Last year they brought in 1000, and sold out pretty fast. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/43 "2005-08-22T01:52:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Well, maybe I wasn’t clear. I’m not talking about “channeling consumer trends” in the sense of social engineering, but making the price of fuel contain the cost that fuel conspumption has on society (building roads, pollution, what-have-you). It’s directing the taxes at the actual act of consumption. This allows standard market mechanisms to kick in. The price you pay for something is the critical piece of information you need to have to make the appropriate choices. Poor people need to know the price of a commodity, too. We have a way of ammeliorating the effects of poverty (ie, welfare) and we can ajust that mechanism accordingly. The real problem with that is that it’s just not easy determining what the true cost is to a car buyer of the road system, because so many other people benefit from it too. The military depends on it for defense. Emergency services need it. The roads are part of the basic infrastructure of the country, so it’s not clear how much of the maintenance of that should be dumped on individuals who drive cars. Also, in terms of road wear, gas mileage is only a second-order interaction. Gross vehicle weight is the important measure there, so a 3600 lb hybrid Escape is using more of the road infrastructure than a 2800lb Ferrari that gets half the mileage. It’s not all that clear in terms of emissions either. First, all kinds of emissions are not currently taxed, so choosing to single out cars over other polluters skews the market. You’re right in concept that if we could figure out a way to make all industries and activities pay for their various externalities, it would not only be more economically efficient but it would help up figure out optimium ways to solve environmental issues. The problem is that it’s just devilishly hard to do. Especially when you throw politics into the mix. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/44 "2005-08-22T02:02:32Z")
> [@mike1dog](#): > > I’m not a big fan of hybrids. There are too many questions. One is how long will these batteries last? If you’ve had a laptop, which uses the same basic battery technology, you’ll notice that as time goes on the batteries lose some of their efficiency. I know they are warranteed for 100k miles, but I don’t know at what point Toyota would consider the battery “dead” and in need of replacement. If it’s beyond the warranty period, the battery pack would cost about five thousand dollars. [Here](http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20040623) is what a Toyota Press release has to say on the subject of battery life: > [@](#): > > The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won’t be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear. Note that because the first generation Prius has been sold since fall of 2000 in the U.S. and there are a not-tiny fraction of people who put like 30-50K miles on their cars a year, there really is some real-world evidence of how the batteries are holding up. > [@mike1dog](#): > > I’ve never seen anyone in any road test of the Prius get the 61 mpg. The best I’ve seen is around 50, with some dipping into the high thirties. Well, there is a recent special case of a group of guys getting over 100 mpg on a tank of gas in a Prius by using a very special driving technique on a road that they could admittedly drive in the optimal range of 30-40 mph. But, yes, it is true that the EPA mileage test is not a very realistic measure of what you get in a hybrid in real life. It should be added that the EPA test also tends to inflate numbers for non-hybrid cars too, although the effects seems to be somewhat greater for hybrids than non-hybrids. My own experience with a 2004 Prius is that I get around 50-52 mpg in summer here in Rochester, dropping down to around 40 or so in winter. (I did have one tank with 35 mpg that coincided just about perfectly with the two must brutally cold weeks of the winter.) My lifetime mileage after just over a year is then ~47 mpg. I’d probably do a bit better, especially in winter, if I had a somewhat longer commute, as my ~15 minute commute doesn’t give the car much time to warm up then. > [@mike1dog](#): > > I’ve read that there are some fire departments that have said they won’t rescue people in hybrid cars if they’re significantly damaged out of fear of electocution. This sounds exaggerated. I heard there were some concerns among fire departments, but that sort of thing is to be expected with a new technology (including air bags, for example). Surely, the hazards for these emergency personnel, once properly trained, will be no worse than the hazards of dealing with a highly flammable liquid like gasoline!! Here, from the above-linked Toyota Press release, is what they say on the subject: > [@](#): > > In the Prius, there are numerous safeguards to help ensure safe operation for drivers and protection of emergency response professionals in the event of an accident. High-voltage cables are located away from areas that workers might access, are painted orange, are shrouded in metal and have specific automatic disablement mechanisms to ensure the lines would have no voltage in them if an accident occurs. > > Additionally, beginning with the first-generation Prius, Toyota has developed manuals and assisted in training exercises to ensure correct information is disseminated. These manuals are available on-line to all emergency response personnel. Most importantly, Prius hybrids have been on U.S. roads for five years and Toyota is not aware of any personal injury in the U.S. related to hybrid or EV electrical systems. > [@mike1dog](#): > > Plus, nobody has ever said what will be done with these battery packs after the car has ended its useful life. Is there a recycling program for them? Will junkyards be able to handle them? Here is information from the Toyota Press Release on the subject: > [@](#): > > Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 “bounty” for each battery. Note also that nickel-metal hydride batteries are apparently not nearly as environmentally hazardous as the standard lead acid batteries of other cars (which the Prius also does have, by the way) and batteries with cadmium in them. Also, although I haven’t directly seen the batteries themselves (they don’t make them easy to get to), I have heard that they are not as large as one might think…I think it was like the size of a couple of phone books or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/45 "2005-08-22T02:04:57Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > You’re right in concept that if we could figure out a way to make all industries and activities pay for their various externalities, it would not only be more economically efficient but it would help up figure out optimium ways to solve environmental issues. The problem is that it’s just devilishly hard to do. Especially when you throw politics into the mix. Sure, I agree that it is hard. But not so hard that we couldn’t at least get closer by trying than by doing nothing…at least for industries where the externalities are particularly glaring. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/46 "2005-08-22T02:13:56Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Well, there is a recent special case of a group of guys getting over 100 mpg on a tank of gas in a Prius by using a very special driving technique on a road that they could admittedly drive in the optimal range of 30-40 mph. [Here](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm) is the link, by the way! I have to admit that I was surprised that it was physically possible to get this sort of mileage in a Prius over a full tank of gas. It does suggest that there is still consider room for improvement in hybrid or other high-mileage technology! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/47 "2005-08-22T02:27:33Z")
There was an article on CNN the other day talking about a modified Prius getting 250 miles per gallon. Of course they were using extra batteries charged off the grid…but it was still pretty cool. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/48 "2005-08-22T03:31:59Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > [Here](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm) is the link, by the way! I have to admit that I was surprised that it was physically possible to get this sort of mileage in a Prius over a full tank of gas. It does suggest that there is still consider room for improvement in hybrid or other high-mileage technology! It should be possible to layer all the body panels with solar cells and a thin layer of batteries to augment stored power. Gas mileage wouldn’t be linear as a function of running time but it might boost short driving cycles immensely (like going to work). I’ve seen capacitor batteries that were really lightweight. It would be great if they could mold them into sheets and then bond them to carbon fiber hoods. If solar cells work off of infrared heat they could be layered on the underside of the hood. Nobody seems interested in recovering the heat generated by the engine but a turbo/generator would certainly be useful in some way. Geeze, we’re spending all this money on colleges it would be nice if some of the research actually hit the road. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/49 "2005-08-22T04:12:52Z")
The new announcement of a simple manufacturing method for sheets of carbon nanotube material is pretty exciting. From what I understand of it, it could lead to much lighter cars, allow panels on cars to be turned into photovoltaic cells, and even be designed to hold a charge. Who knows, maybe soon we’ll be driving cars that are 500 lbs lighter than equivalent cars today, with electric drivetrains and a car body that not only collects solar energy, but directly stores it. That would be pretty cool. Of course, it could turn out the other way, that this stuff is impractical to use and not applicable to cars at all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/50 "2005-08-22T05:24:37Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Sure, I agree that it is hard. But not so hard that we couldn’t at least get closer by trying than by doing nothing…at least for industries where the externalities are particularly glaring. Yes, this is what I’m getting at. I probably made it sound simple, but that was not my intent. And just because something can’t be done perfectly, doesn’t mean that we can’t make our best effort to get it close-- or better than it is now. Of course we’ll have to make some assumptions and average some things out. Politics, too, will get in the way as special interest try to advance their own agenda. Perhaps the politics will bog the whole process down and make it ineffective. But politics gets in the way of everything we try to do thru government action. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920/51 "2005-08-22T14:34:48Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I think it’s quite a reasonable policy, though it’d make more sense if it were about fuel efficiency period, and not just about hybrids. If I were the manufacturer of a microcar with amazing mileage but no hybrid drivetrain I’d be a tad peeved. This I agree with completely. Some of the hybrids being produced are very powerful, but not good conservers in terms of mpg. If a Prius gets a credit, a diesel Jetta should to, because they both can get over 40mpg on the highway. A Lexus RX400h gets about 25, if you’re lucky. Maybe that’s pretty good for an SUV with the power of a V8 and the acceleration of a sports car. But so what? It still burns too much gas considering it’s used mostly to shuttle single yuppies and wealthy empty-nesters around the 'burbs in a manner that could be accomplished just as well, for all practical purposes, as a Jetta or a Prius. I see no reason why people getting under 30mpg should get a credit for conservation. They’re not conserving anything, they’re just driving their tanks a lot faster. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-signs-bill-for-hybrid-tax-credit-thoughts/317920.md?page=2)