I tend to agree that this is probably the best solution in principle. I am sensitive to ExTank’s concerns about the impact on the poor but one has to recognize that such a tax could be used to raise a significant amount of revenue…and I think that revenue, or at least a good portion of it, should be used to offset the effects of the tax on the poor through lower other taxes for them and/or increased assistance.
Unfortunately, this approach seems to be a non-starter politically, whereas things like tax credits for hybrids are so politically acceptable that Republicans and Democrats alike support them.
By the way, it is worth noting that even this fairly hefty tax credit is still small potatoes compared to the tax deduction for “small business owners” (which I have heard can mean almost anyone in certain professions like doctors or lawyers) for buying the most gargantuan SUVs.
They started out trying to make a cheap commuter version, which didn’t go over at all. So now they’re aiming it at the high end luxury market. Accordingly, it’s more powerful, a little heavier (1500 lbs), and only get around 50-60 mpg. But certainly the concept could be employed for much smaller commuter vehicles.
Another alternative which is also on the market for those who want a very light, very efficient commuter car is the Smart Car. I’m actually starting to see quite a few of these on the streets of Edmonton, and they are coming to the U.S.
This thing sounds exactly like the kind of car DougC was talking about. Roughly 60 HP and 1600 lbs, the Smart car gets close to 60 mpg, and some versions can get as high as 80 mpg. One of our guys at work owns one, and he loves it. For him, it makes a lot of sense since he commutes almost 100 miles a day. The car is also much cheaper than the cheapest hybrid. And they’re under $20,000.
This class of cars can even be lots of fun. The Lotus Elise is one of the best handling cars in the world, and because it’s so light it can do 0-60 in under 5 seconds and still get 30 mpg. The Smart Roadster isn’t particularly fast, but at 1800 lbs I’ll bet it handles like a Go-Kart. And with only 80hp, I’ll bet it gets great fuel economy. You can even get a ‘Brabus’ version with better handling suspension and a turbocharger.
So there are already plenty of options out there for people who want very small, cheap, high efficiency cars. But they just aren’t selling all that well. But that could easily change. If gas goes up a dollar or two more a gallon, you’ll probably start seeing a lot more of these on the roads. Daimler-Chrysler, who imports Smart cars into Canada, says they could now sell 5,000 a year in our market. That’s a lot. Last year they brought in 1000, and sold out pretty fast.
The real problem with that is that it’s just not easy determining what the true cost is to a car buyer of the road system, because so many other people benefit from it too. The military depends on it for defense. Emergency services need it. The roads are part of the basic infrastructure of the country, so it’s not clear how much of the maintenance of that should be dumped on individuals who drive cars. Also, in terms of road wear, gas mileage is only a second-order interaction. Gross vehicle weight is the important measure there, so a 3600 lb hybrid Escape is using more of the road infrastructure than a 2800lb Ferrari that gets half the mileage.
It’s not all that clear in terms of emissions either. First, all kinds of emissions are not currently taxed, so choosing to single out cars over other polluters skews the market.
You’re right in concept that if we could figure out a way to make all industries and activities pay for their various externalities, it would not only be more economically efficient but it would help up figure out optimium ways to solve environmental issues. The problem is that it’s just devilishly hard to do. Especially when you throw politics into the mix.
Here is what a Toyota Press release has to say on the subject of battery life:
Note that because the first generation Prius has been sold since fall of 2000 in the U.S. and there are a not-tiny fraction of people who put like 30-50K miles on their cars a year, there really is some real-world evidence of how the batteries are holding up.
Well, there is a recent special case of a group of guys getting over 100 mpg on a tank of gas in a Prius by using a very special driving technique on a road that they could admittedly drive in the optimal range of 30-40 mph. But, yes, it is true that the EPA mileage test is not a very realistic measure of what you get in a hybrid in real life. It should be added that the EPA test also tends to inflate numbers for non-hybrid cars too, although the effects seems to be somewhat greater for hybrids than non-hybrids.
My own experience with a 2004 Prius is that I get around 50-52 mpg in summer here in Rochester, dropping down to around 40 or so in winter. (I did have one tank with 35 mpg that coincided just about perfectly with the two must brutally cold weeks of the winter.) My lifetime mileage after just over a year is then ~47 mpg. I’d probably do a bit better, especially in winter, if I had a somewhat longer commute, as my ~15 minute commute doesn’t give the car much time to warm up then.
This sounds exaggerated. I heard there were some concerns among fire departments, but that sort of thing is to be expected with a new technology (including air bags, for example). Surely, the hazards for these emergency personnel, once properly trained, will be no worse than the hazards of dealing with a highly flammable liquid like gasoline!!
Here, from the above-linked Toyota Press release, is what they say on the subject:
Here is information from the Toyota Press Release on the subject:
Note also that nickel-metal hydride batteries are apparently not nearly as environmentally hazardous as the standard lead acid batteries of other cars (which the Prius also does have, by the way) and batteries with cadmium in them. Also, although I haven’t directly seen the batteries themselves (they don’t make them easy to get to), I have heard that they are not as large as one might think…I think it was like the size of a couple of phone books or something like that.
Sure, I agree that it is hard. But not so hard that we couldn’t at least get closer by trying than by doing nothing…at least for industries where the externalities are particularly glaring.
Here is the link, by the way! I have to admit that I was surprised that it was physically possible to get this sort of mileage in a Prius over a full tank of gas. It does suggest that there is still consider room for improvement in hybrid or other high-mileage technology!
There was an article on CNN the other day talking about a modified Prius getting 250 miles per gallon. Of course they were using extra batteries charged off the grid…but it was still pretty cool.
It should be possible to layer all the body panels with solar cells and a thin layer of batteries to augment stored power. Gas mileage wouldn’t be linear as a function of running time but it might boost short driving cycles immensely (like going to work).
I’ve seen capacitor batteries that were really lightweight. It would be great if they could mold them into sheets and then bond them to carbon fiber hoods. If solar cells work off of infrared heat they could be layered on the underside of the hood. Nobody seems interested in recovering the heat generated by the engine but a turbo/generator would certainly be useful in some way.
Geeze, we’re spending all this money on colleges it would be nice if some of the research actually hit the road.
The new announcement of a simple manufacturing method for sheets of carbon nanotube material is pretty exciting. From what I understand of it, it could lead to much lighter cars, allow panels on cars to be turned into photovoltaic cells, and even be designed to hold a charge. Who knows, maybe soon we’ll be driving cars that are 500 lbs lighter than equivalent cars today, with electric drivetrains and a car body that not only collects solar energy, but directly stores it. That would be pretty cool. Of course, it could turn out the other way, that this stuff is impractical to use and not applicable to cars at all.
Yes, this is what I’m getting at. I probably made it sound simple, but that was not my intent. And just because something can’t be done perfectly, doesn’t mean that we can’t make our best effort to get it close-- or better than it is now. Of course we’ll have to make some assumptions and average some things out. Politics, too, will get in the way as special interest try to advance their own agenda. Perhaps the politics will bog the whole process down and make it ineffective. But politics gets in the way of everything we try to do thru government action.
This I agree with completely. Some of the hybrids being produced are very powerful, but not good conservers in terms of mpg. If a Prius gets a credit, a diesel Jetta should to, because they both can get over 40mpg on the highway. A Lexus RX400h gets about 25, if you’re lucky. Maybe that’s pretty good for an SUV with the power of a V8 and the acceleration of a sports car. But so what? It still burns too much gas considering it’s used mostly to shuttle single yuppies and wealthy empty-nesters around the 'burbs in a manner that could be accomplished just as well, for all practical purposes, as a Jetta or a Prius. I see no reason why people getting under 30mpg should get a credit for conservation. They’re not conserving anything, they’re just driving their tanks a lot faster.