# Bush Sr. Spanks Jr. over Iraq...give any of you gung-ho types pause? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2003, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521 "2003-03-11T08:50:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/1 "2003-03-11T08:50:37Z")
Well, [this](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-605441,00.html) is certainly interesting. (And I apologize if this is being discussed elsewhere, I didn’t see it). Tidbits: > [@](#): > > \*\* > The former President’s comments reflect unease among the Bush family and its entourage at the way that George W. Bush is ignoring international opinion and overriding the institutions that his father sought to uphold. > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\* > Although not addressed to his son in person, the message, in a speech at Tufts University in Massachusetts, was unmistakeable. Mr Bush Sr even came close to conceding that opponents of his son’s case against President Saddam Hussein, who he himself is on record as loathing, have legitimate cause for concern. > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\* > He said that the key question of how many weapons of mass destruction Iraq held “could be debated”. The case against Saddam was “less clear” than in 1991, when Mr Bush Sr led an international coalition to expel invading Iraqi troops from Kuwait. Objectives were “a little fuzzier today”, he added. > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\* > In an ominous warning for his son, Mr Bush Sr said that he would have been able to achieve nothing if he had jeopardised future relations by ignoring the UN. > \*\* Seems to me that if even his own father, the one who made war on Hussein, thinks his son’s actions are questionable, something is desperately wrong with this picture. So, can I count on december, perhaps, to come along and tell me that it doesn’t mean a thing, the father has just become an old skeerdy-cat in his old age and his opinion is meaningless? George Bush is out of control. Even his own damn father thinks so. If he’s willing to say this much publicly, it’s sobering to contemplate how very disturbed he must be, and he is in a far, far better position to understand these matters than any of us. Doesn’t that bother those of you who have so far been unflinching in your support of this administrations single-minded march towards war, even a little bit? Give you a moment’s pause? Cause you to stop and reconsider for a second that maybe, just maybe, George W. Bush and Co. are just flat out \* wrong? \* Why would you consider the son’s opinions, the son who had virtually NO EXPERIENCE OF ANY KIND at international relations, to be a superior bet to his father’s, who spent decades engaged in these sorts of things generally, and Irzq specifically? Not to mention the majority of the international community. Hmm? Anyone care to step up and tackle this one? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/2 "2003-03-11T08:58:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Hmm? Anyone care to step up and tackle this one? [The people in this thread, maybe?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168586) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/3 "2003-03-11T09:07:25Z")
Ooops. I scanned, didn’t see. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/4 "2003-03-11T12:16:00Z")
Why would you think that Bush Sr’s opinion would matter to those who are truly “gung-ho” for the war? Most of them are the same people who thought that he ended the war too soon the last time. Remember this joke? What’s 1000 miles wide, 100 miles deep, and glows in the dark? Iraq, if Bush had any balls. ---
**Author:** ![Texican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ebca7d/32.png) [@Texican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Texican)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/5 "2003-03-11T12:51:46Z")
I haven’t read the other thread, nor the text of the speech, but I’m willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that this article is slanted, biased, and probably downright incorrect. If Bush Sr. honored the longstanding tradition of not commenting on administrations that followed for Clinton, I am confident that he will do the same for someone in his own party, not to mention his own family. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/6 "2003-03-11T12:57:05Z")
“Sir, we have a confirmed **Stoid** sighting in GD. Its a thread, sir.” “What! Are you sure! Intelligence says she joined Hare Krishna and was annoying people in airports!” “No question, sir. Confirmed. Calm common sense, lefty feminism…it her, sir.” “Damn! Go to Condition Ultra-Red! Alert the Usual Suspects!” (Welcome home, Natasha) ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/7 "2003-03-11T13:21:28Z")
**Stoid** I actually read the entire transcript of his speach and the Q&A that followed from tufts website. The same one That the author of the Op-Ed peice is quoting from. Not once did I see Bush as criticising “our President”, as he called him throughout his performance. I cannot even see where the author even got the _impression_ that Sr. could be even maybe criticising Jr. [http://enews.tufts.edu/stories/030303BushSpeech.htm](http://enews.tufts.edu/stories/030303BushSpeech.htm) > [@](#): > > You know, people say, “What’s it like to have your son criticized?” Well, you’re looking at one that came in for his fair share, and probably deservedly so on some things, and maybe just emotionally so on others. But, it hurts a lot more when it’s your son. It hurts a lot more when they’re criticizing, especially when some of the criticism is just meaningless in terms of having any intellectual base to it. I know there’s a false stereotype out there that our President wants to go it alone, rush into war. That is totally false. And what he attributed to critisism of the President from the Tufts speech are blatantly taken out of context. For instance; > [@](#): > > Mr Bush Sr even came close to conceding that opponents of his son’s case against President Saddam Hussein, who he himself is on record as loathing, have legitimate cause for concern. as far as I could gather could only be refering to this statement; > [@](#): > > I know there are many here on this campus, and many in the United States, many in my state, many more over in Europe and throughout the Arab world who oppose war on any terms. And it is a sentiment, as I said earlier, that I can understand. Is Sr. saying that those who oppose war on any terms legitimate? I doubt it, considering his record in politics and the CIA. And what he said right after should be able to set the context. > [@](#): > > I would ask them hypothetically, “Were we wrong back in 1942 – Had we gone into World War II earlier to save a million Jews, and to save one million Poles, would that have been wrong to use force?” I don’t know how the protestors say, “No war on any circumstance,” would answer a question like that. But, I think, there is such a concept as a just war. Also, when he was refering to this; > [@](#): > > In an ominous warning for his son, Mr Bush Sr said that he would have been able to achieve nothing if he had jeopardised future relations by ignoring the UN. Someone asked Bush why he did not take care of Saddam back in 91 when he had the chance. His point was that it wasn’t his decision. The colaition had priortites set forth by the UN that could not be ignored. If he had ignored th UN at that time to take care of Saddam then would have run the risk of fracturing the coalition that he depended on at the time. Not once did I read where he said the President was ignoring the UN or the Int’l community. As a matter of fact he said \*“I agree with the President, it would be much better to act with as much international support as possible.” \*And also; _“And the more united that pressure is, the more chance there is that this matter will be resolved in a peaceful manner. And I hope that our allies abroad, and I hope our friends around the world understand that.”_ > [@](#): > > He said that the key question of how many weapons of mass destruction Iraq held “could be debated”. The case against Saddam was “less clear” than in 1991, when Mr Bush Sr led an international coalition to expel invading Iraqi troops from Kuwait. Objectives were “a little fuzzier today”, he added. Clearly refers to this; > [@](#): > > PRESIDENT BUSH: I agree with the President, it would be much better to act with as much international support as possible. The difference between '91 and today is that the objective was clearer, in a way, back when I was President. You could see the occupying forces. You could get the reports of the brutality of the Iraqi soldiers to the Kuwaiti women, and to the torture of the young men. You could see that the forces, in my view, were determined to go even further south to try to take over – that was my view – to take over Saudi Arabia. Today it’s less clear. > > The violations of the U.N. resolutions by Saddam Hussein are clear. But, the question is how much does he have in a way of weapons of mass destruction? That could be debated. But, I think, most people conclude that he has not done what he was called on to do, to fully disarm. So, it’s a little fuzzier today. > > But, then you have another ingredient today that we didn’t have back then. You saw September 11th. Now, I’m not saying that this is a big conspiracy between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, but the United States must do what it can to protect itself and its friends against the use of weapons of mass destruction. And here’s somebody that’s violated these norms. And, I think, that it is understandable we’re trying to get him to live within those resolutions, and whether we stay together enough to make him change his ways without fighting, I don’t know, I just don’t know. Where he got the quote about him telling the President to reach out to others, I have no idea. So he could be basing his opinion on other events that he decided not to reference. But in regards to the Tufts inuendo, that is so blatantly obfuscated, it is almost offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/8 "2003-03-11T13:30:15Z")
You have a remarkable ability. The psychic power to believe that a document says what you wish it to say. How “amazing”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/9 "2003-03-11T13:32:09Z")
Thank you, **Saen** , for your very useful analysis. Well done. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/10 "2003-03-11T13:40:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor \* > \*\*You have a remarkable ability. The psychic power to believe that a document says what you wish it to say. > > How “amazing”. :rolleyes: \*\* Care to elaborate? I don’t, however, have the psychic ability to read minds. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/11 "2003-03-11T14:13:38Z")
I also think **Saen** provides some useful analysis. The origin article linked in the op is short on quotes and long on the reporter’s commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/12 "2003-03-11T15:30:19Z")
Another thumbs up for **Saen’s** post. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*…and he is in a far, far better position to understand these matters than any of us. \*\* Yes he is. He seems supportive of this invasion. Does that resonate with the opposition, give them a moment’s pause, maybe to stop and and think and reconsider…? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/13 "2003-03-11T16:10:58Z")
He is not supportive of an invasion without UN support. Sr. is very clear on that. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/14 "2003-03-11T16:17:50Z")
Regarding the article and its source - the Times of London is a conservative, Murdoch-owned, largely pro-war paper. Doesn’t necessarily influence the individual journalist, who may indeed have been misrepresenting Pappa B, but it’s not necessarily what the editorship would usually condone. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/15 "2003-03-11T16:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*He is not supportive of an invasion without UN support. Sr. is very clear on that. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/16 "2003-03-11T16:42:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*He is not supportive of an invasion without UN support. Sr. is very clear on that. \*\* Where is that clear? He _clearly_ supports more help, specifically the UN. But where is he “very clear” he does not support a war without the UN? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/17 "2003-03-11T16:59:00Z")
Seems like Saen read the actual speech- and Stoid read a commentary on that speech. Thus, Bosda & others, I’d say that Saen at least is trying to interpret what Bush sr actually said- and quotes him- instead of quoting what a reporter THOUGHT Bush sr said. Of course, Bush sr is a “statesman” which means his words are carefully chosen to allow you to read what you like into them. Obviously this has happened here. But from reading the few actual quotes from Bush sr, it deosn’t sound like he is “spanking” his son, at best he is saying that he, Bush sr did what was right at that time, and “damning his son with faint praise”. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/18 "2003-03-11T17:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*He is not supportive of an invasion without UN support. Sr. is very clear on that. \*\* Actually he’s kind of unclear on that. It’s more like he believes a united show of _comply or else_ will get the job done peacefully - united being a key word. I agree. But we don’t have that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/19 "2003-03-11T17:11:28Z")
> [@](#): > > **Saen** said: > He clearly supports more help, specifically the UN. But where is he “very clear” he does not support a war without the UN? It’s clear when he says that he could have accomplished nothing in the 1st Gulf war without the UN. He also warns against alienating the international community. He may not be explicit, but I think it’s clear enough what he meant. It is _not_ a ringing endorsement of the illegal invasion proposed by Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521/20 "2003-03-11T17:35:57Z")
Read the transcript. I gave the link. he never said he could have accomplished nothing without the UN. He said that by staying within the UN mandate (not extending the war by invading Iraq and taking out Saddam), he was able to accomplish more with the then _current_ caolition. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, the Madrid conference would never have happened if the international coalition that fought together in Desert Storm had acceded the U.N. mandate and gone on on its own if the United States had gone on on its own, had gone into Baghdad after Saddam and his forces had surrendered and agreed to disarm. The coalition would have instantly shattered. And the political capital that we had gained as a result of our principle restraint to jumpstart the peace process would have been lost. We would have lost all support from our coalition, with the possible exception of England. And we would have lost all support from the smaller nations in the United Nations as well. Defending his ‘inaction’ against Saddam, he seems to be saying it was the right thing to do. But he is also indicating that things have changed. > [@](#): > > But, then you have another ingredient today that we didn’t have back then. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-sr-spanks-jr-over-iraq-give-any-of-you-gung-ho-types-pause/160521.md?page=2)