# Bush Telling the EU who can join the party **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016 "2002-12-11T16:00:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/41 "2002-12-12T13:52:21Z")
From [this ABC News article](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/reuters20021211_221.html): > [@](#): > > “[Danish Prime Minister] Rasmussen has had a telephone call from…Bush. The topic of the conversation was Turkey’s future relationship with the EU,” the Danish prime minister’s office said in a statement. > > Rasmussen told Bush that he would submit the Danish EU presidency’s proposal regarding Turkey to his EU colleagues at the summit dinner Thursday, the statement said but did not elaborate. As far as I’m aware, no EU member country has complained about Mr Bush’s remarks. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/42 "2002-12-12T15:43:55Z")
Well, sorry but this _is_ interference. ‘Freedom of Speech’ would be a public statement like:’ I believe Turkey being part of the EU would be a good thing’. Calling up Rassmussen (and who else?) is not a statement, it’s called lobbying or, coming from the president of the US, could even be called pressuring. ---
**Author:** ![ShetlandPony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@ShetlandPony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShetlandPony)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/43 "2002-12-12T17:01:07Z")
The discussion of the First Amendment here is spurious. There is a large difference between stating an opinion and announcing you are going to do something. Were I , purely hypothetically, to announce that I was going to assasinate the President. I would be committing an offence. I don’t think that the First Amendmant would protect me. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/44 "2002-12-12T20:51:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ShetlandPony \* > \*\*The discussion of the First Amendment here is spurious. > > There is a large difference between stating an opinion and announcing you are going to do something. Were I , purely hypothetically, to announce that I was going to assasinate the President. I would be committing an offence. I don’t think that the First Amendmant would protect me. \*\* Why yes, your analogy is perfectly on point. :rolleyes: What, exactly, is Bush going to do to get Turkey into the EU? **Express his opinion** to the members of the EU that Turkey should be admitted. And that’s exactly what he has done. I haven’t seen any threats, overt or covert, that the US will invade Denmark if Turkey is not admitted, that the U.S. will no longer allow German goods to be sold in the U.S. until Germany is admitted, etc., etc. The U.S. thinks it would be in the U.S.'s interest to have Turkey be a member of the EU. The U.S. recognizes that it cannot make Turkey a member of the EU by fiat. Accordingly, the US does the one thing it can do - lobby the people who can make Turkey a member of the EU a member of the EU. Let’s face it - what is going on is that the Bush is urging its allies in Western Europe to change their foreign policy in one regard. Germany and France, as examples, are urging Bush to change **his** foreign policy in one regard - concerning Iraq. If Germany and France have the “right” to try to influence the U.S.'s foreign policy, why doesn’t the U.S. have the same “right”? Sua ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/45 "2002-12-12T22:02:38Z")
Sua, Admitting Turkey to the EU is **domestic** policy as far as the members of the EU are concerned; for example, one of many consequences of a country joining is that any of its citizens can go to any other member country and work, with no visa or time limit. ---
**Author:** ![Vic\_Ferrari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/dbc845/32.png) [@Vic\_Ferrari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vic_Ferrari)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/46 "2002-12-13T03:00:51Z")
Have any official tail-feathers been ruffled? This whole thing seems perfectly ordinary. And I still say Turkey is under consideration. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/47 "2002-12-13T07:30:48Z")
There were definitely a few feathers ruffled. I’m watching Euronews at the moment, and the coverage of the summit yesterday is focused on how the EU is standing up to US pressure by refusing to admit Turkey straightaway. ---
**Author:** ![Vic\_Ferrari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/dbc845/32.png) [@Vic\_Ferrari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vic_Ferrari)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/48 "2002-12-13T07:55:03Z")
**ruadh** , that’s interesting and I hadn’t heard about it, were they complaining about Bush interfering in EU domestic affairs? And while the US President is the most powerful man on earth, I fail to see how making a couple phone calls and putting a good word in for Turkey is “pressure.” What did Bush threaten to do when the EU refuses to admit Turkey straightaway? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/49 "2002-12-13T13:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vic Ferrari \* > \*\*And while the US President is the most powerful man on earth, I fail to see how making a couple phone calls and putting a good word in for Turkey is “pressure.” What did Bush threaten to do when the EU refuses to admit Turkey straightaway? \*\* I can imagine that the many people/politicians in the EU who are largely pro-UN, and have been very concerned about the current US administration’s lack of enthusiasm for signing up to various international protocols - the reason usually given that the UN ‘has no right to interfere’ in US domestic affairs - might see this as somewhat hypocritical. YMMV. Personally, I don’t give a shite. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/50 "2002-12-13T14:23:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G. Odoreida \* > \*\*Sua, > Admitting Turkey to the EU is **domestic** policy as far as the members of the EU are concerned; for example, one of many consequences of a country joining is that any of its citizens can go to any other member country and work, with no visa or time limit. \*\* Well, I disagree, but we can move past it without having to agree. There have been innumerable instances where European countries have attempted to influence domestic U.S. policy, from statements decrying the death penalty, or attempts to have the U.S. adopt European accounting standards, to opposition to U.S. farm subsidies. And I say, more power to the Europeans. And more power to the U.S. in attempting to influence European policy, whether we classify it as foreign or domestic. Sua ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/51 "2002-12-13T15:53:42Z")
I don’t dispute any of that, and I didn’t make any comment about whether Bush is right to say what he did (I just said that the merits are open to debate). I wanted to point out that the EU is different from NAFTA. As a member, Turkey will get to vote in binding decisions that affect all EU countries regarding things like employment law or consumer standards. EU law and policy affects the lives of every person in the union in many ways every day. Foreign policy it certainly is not. ---
**Author:** ![Vic\_Ferrari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/dbc845/32.png) [@Vic\_Ferrari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vic_Ferrari)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/52 "2002-12-13T16:25:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*I can imagine that the many people/politicians in the EU who are largely pro-UN, and have been very concerned about the current US administration’s lack of enthusiasm for signing up to various international protocols - the reason usually given that the UN ‘has no right to interfere’ in US domestic affairs - might see this as somewhat hypocritical. YMMV. Personally, I don’t give a shite. \*\* Fair enough. I don’t really give a shite, either. And I encourage Europeans to criticize US domestic policy, we have nothing to fear from opinions. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/53 "2002-12-13T19:23:37Z")
Today’s updates include these: [Turkey’s EU dismay](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2571817.stm). [Thorny issues for the EU](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2572531.stm) (this one very briefly mentions the scope of EU members’ opposition to Turkey). [Cyprus talks collapse](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2573643.stm). There shouldn’t be any disagreement about whether opposition to Turkey’s admission to the EU is a domestic or international matter. It’s obviously a domestic concern if any Turkish citizen has free access to all other member countries and right of residency, work and social benefits, as would be the case. The benefits of Turkish membership are not only strategic ones, but that’s obviously the main consideration. Incidentally, [this story](http://www.useu.be/Categories/US&EUEnlargement/Nov0402GrossmanPapandreauTurkeyCyprus.html) also mentioned Greek support for Turkey’s EU membership application following the Turkish election last month. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/54 "2002-12-13T19:26:25Z")
[http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/11/summit.oakley/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/11/summit.oakley/index.html) Chris Patten [referring to the USA]: “Turkey’s friends should be more judicious. Most of us have lost count of the numbers of times American officials have offered Turkey membership of the EU. I sometimes think that perhaps we should offer Mexico membership of the United States.” ---
**Author:** ![Vic\_Ferrari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/dbc845/32.png) [@Vic\_Ferrari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vic_Ferrari)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/55 "2002-12-13T21:17:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Chris Patten said: \* > \*\*Most of us have lost count of the numbers of times American officials have offered Turkey membership of the EU. \*\* I guess that means Bush is just carrying out normal US relations. > [@](#): > > **I sometimes think that perhaps we should offer Mexico membership of the United States.** That would be fine with me, the more the merrier. I’m not sure Mexico would be too thrilled about it, though. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/56 "2002-12-13T21:27:47Z")
\>\> I’m not sure Mexico would be too thrilled about it, though Yeah, it’s no fun if you can freely cross the border without having to evade the vigilantes and the border patrol ^\_\* ---
**Author:** ![Vic\_Ferrari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/dbc845/32.png) [@Vic\_Ferrari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vic_Ferrari)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/57 "2002-12-13T21:42:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*_Yeah, it’s no fun if you can freely cross the border without having to evade the vigilantes and the border patrol ^\__ \*\* Just because Mexicans come here to work doesn’t mean that they wish Mexico was part of America. Many illegals just come up here to work, save up some money, and then go back home. That said, I’m sure there are a lot of Mexicans who _do_ wish they were American, and many of them are probably living in the US right now. If Mexico wanted to become a US state, I imagine they would have officially said something by now. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/58 "2002-12-13T22:04:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*[http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/11/summit.oakley/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/11/summit.oakley/index.html) > > Chris Patten [referring to the USA]: “Turkey’s friends should be more judicious. Most of us have lost count of the numbers of times American officials have offered Turkey membership of the EU. I sometimes think that perhaps we should offer Mexico membership of the United States.” \*\* Fair enough. Chris Patten has the right to be annoyed at Dubya. Everybody’s happy. 🙂 Sua ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/59 "2002-12-13T22:24:37Z")
Not to highjack this thread but it would be interesting to discuss the effects if the Mexican states were to join the USA. I believe Mexico has 32 states and a population of a bit over 100 million. I do not think there’s any way the US would admit all those states and people into the Union because most would feel threatened. Sort of like Europe with Turkey, if you get my drift. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016/60 "2002-12-13T22:27:09Z")
Even so, Patten didn’t _look_ annoyed when I saw him making that comment on the news tonight. And _I’m_ not happy, Sua - I’m still smarting\* over that rolleyes ;). \*not really [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-telling-the-eu-who-can-join-the-party/142016.md?page=4)