# Bush @ The UN **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521 "2003-09-24T12:05:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/61 "2003-09-25T11:27:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > If it weren’t for the big suicide scandal no one would ever have noticed, would just have let it fly like all the rest. Really? Why do you think Kelly killed himself ? He did it because of the pressure put on him because people did notice what Gilligan did which BTW is far from what you describe. Once again I say you don’t have a clue. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/62 "2003-09-25T11:27:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > **However let me ask you a question. The fact that Bush must have known he faced a wall of stern opposition and yet still went right up there and presented his case, argued his point. Does that make him a courageous man do you think? Boldly standing firm on his convictions? Or do you think he’s just too stupid to notice much of anything taken place around him?** There’s a fine line between stanging up for one’s convictions in the face of overwhelming opposition, and arrogance (and idiocy, for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/63 "2003-09-25T11:29:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **This is the Pit, not Great Debates. You want to debate, go to the right forum.** London\_calling shows impressive intelligence yet again. Why it’s almost inhuman of you London, how do you manage? Wrong forum eh. Damn got me there London. How about I just call you a com’ guzzling pit whore then? You like that better? Who the fuck said this forum is just for slinging brainless insults around. I think it’s a forum where debate can take somewhat freer form. If you disagree you go fuck off. neener neener. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/64 "2003-09-25T11:33:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > The fact that Bush must have known he faced a wall of stern opposition and yet still went right up there and presented his case, argued his point. Does that make him a courageous man do you think? Boldly standing firm on his convictions? Or do you think he’s just too stupid to notice much of anything taken place around him? It makes him absolutely desperate to win a second term, whatever the humiliating price now. Something Daddy couldn’t do either. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/65 "2003-09-25T11:41:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*Really? Why do you think Kelly killed himself ? He did it because of the pressure put on him because people did notice what Gilligan did which BTW is far from what you describe. > > Once again I say you don’t have a clue. \*\* What came first the chicken or the egg. The fact remains, a journalist, by own admission, manipulated with facts on a state sponsored broadcasting network. Are you actually trying to argue this is the only time this has taken place, ever? Once again I say WAKE UP! - Rune ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/66 "2003-09-25T11:45:19Z")
Are you still entirely with us **Winston Smith**? You post views that demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the issues I suggest you demonstrate the insight of a retarded goldfish You tell me I’m not debating the issue I tell you it’s not a debating forum You post “neener neener” Your last post demonstrates you still don’t have the beginning of an understand of the relevant issues and, worse still, you’re unimaginative with insults. Have a nice “State controlled” swim. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/67 "2003-09-25T11:54:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*There’s a fine line between stanging up for one’s convictions in the face of overwhelming opposition, and arrogance (and idiocy, for that matter). \*\* Is there (a fine line I mean)? I can easily admire politicians I do not agree with. Your own Blair for instance, a man I’d never vote for, showed surprisingly (to me) great courage on his stand on Iraq. Also Chirac on this issue showed statesmanship in standing firm (a thing you might imagine I did not agree with either), not buckling under the mighty pressure of the US. (Schröder on the other hand, is just a dirty populist milking the Iraqi cow for what it’s got) But I take it you just think Bush is arrogant and an idiot. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/68 "2003-09-25T12:21:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **You post views that demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the issues** You on the other hand **London\_calling** show such surprisingly intellect. Such a magnificent grip on all the relevant issues. A shame you won’t share them with the masses though. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **I suggest you demonstrate the insight of a retarded goldfish** _blob_ _blob_ > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **You tell me I’m not debating the issue** You might want to read that again. I said you completely overwhelmed me with your intelligence. And what do you know. Here you go and do it again. This is simply too much London\_calling, you blow me away. Clear out of the water! Damn you’re a mother fucker! You kick ass my man! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **You post “neener neener”** You might want to look up irony. While you seem to think it’s hells bells to sling insults around and having a food fight, you might consider that you’re not in fact at your expensive private boarding school anymore. You can lay off the uniform and tie and come out to us mortals. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **Your last post demonstrates you still don’t have the beginning of an understand of the relevant issues and, worse still, you’re unimaginative with insults.** While being called a goldfish is simply imaginative beyond measure! The mother of all insults. I suggested with my “insult” (meant to be unimaginative BTW) that all insults are unimaginative. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/69 "2003-09-25T12:32:21Z")
Here’s your original post. Let us know when you get past the arrogance and hurt and want some insights into the issues: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > When the BBC, or one of the other myriad of European state controlled news organisations, engage in political activism, it’s much worse. They’re perverting the state’s face to the outside world and using it to voice political opinions only shared by a small clique masking them as opinions shared by the general populace, and further using the state’s creditability to bleach own dubious ends. But worse that that is that they are in fact forcing the (tax) paying public to further a political agenda they may not subscribe to, one even which they may find morally distasteful. > > Another thing that’s quite common in many European countries, is forcing workers to back a certain political profile. In that many workplaces demand that you belong to a certain labour organisation. This is bad enough in itself, but when, as is often the case, the labour organisation also engage in very visible politicking, often directly associated with a certain party, it’s very very bad. Political rape of opinion minorities. Many workers are forced to face a choice between furthering a political agenda in opposition to their own or being unemployed – unable to support their family. Simply an instance of the age old _the strong do what he wants while the weak suffer what he must_. This time from an organisation purporting to fight the case of the weak. > > Those both are bordering on breaking basic human rights. The right to formulate and pursue independent political views, and not being forced to endorse views you do not support. And this is 2003. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/70 "2003-09-25T12:42:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Here’s your original post. Let us know when you get past the arrogance and hurt and want some insights into the issues: \*\* Ok. How about now. I have cried out, and trust me I show a great deal of contrition. So if you have anything to add beyond the goldfish thing, go ahead and knock yourself out. Blow me away. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/71 "2003-09-25T12:50:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > \*\*Is there (a fine line I mean)? I can easily admire politicians I do not agree with. Your own Blair for instance, a man I’d never vote for, showed surprisingly (to me) great courage on his stand on Iraq. Also Chirac on this issue showed statesmanship in standing firm (a thing you might imagine I did not agree with either), not buckling under the mighty pressure of the US. (Schröder on the other hand, is just a dirty populist milking the Iraqi cow for what it’s got) But I take it you just think Bush is arrogant and an idiot. > > - Rune \*\* I said there’s a fine line. Chirac (and I detest the man) took a pricipled stand. Blair (and I used to like the man) took a stand which is on the verge of idiocy, given that the UK is meant to be a representative Parilamentary democracy, and at the time the majority of the people he’s representing were in opposition to his stant - not to mention that we knew he was lying, he lied, and now he’s been shown to be lying - took an idiotic stand. But neither of these men had demeaned, bad-mouthed and diminished the bodies in front of which they argued their case. Bush did. That’s arrogant. All IMO. BTW, the BBC is state-funded, not state sponsored, in the meaning that its job is not to front the government but to be independent of the government. Goldfish. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/72 "2003-09-25T13:09:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*But neither of these men had demeaned, bad-mouthed and diminished the bodies in front of which they argued their case. Bush did. That’s arrogant. All IMO. > \*\* what constitutes “bad-mouthing” the UN? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/73 "2003-09-25T13:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*I said there’s a fine line. Chirac (and I detest the man) took a pricipled stand. Blair (and I used to like the man) took a stand which is on the verge of idiocy, given that the UK is meant to be a representative Parilamentary democracy, and at the time the majority of the people he’s representing were in opposition to his stant - not to mention that we knew he was lying, he lied, and now he’s been shown to be lying - took an idiotic stand. But neither of these men had demeaned, bad-mouthed and diminished the bodies in front of which they argued their case. Bush did. That’s arrogant. All IMO… \*\* Yes I know what you said, I’m just not sure I agree. Anyway I think you’re unable to look beyond your own prejudices and give a fair evaluation of the man’s character. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > **BTW, the BBC is state-funded, not state sponsored, in the meaning that its job is not to front the government but to be independent of the government.** They’re also supposed to be independent of all other political influences. And the government is supposed to guarantee that. When The BBC says something people are supposed to be able to assume it’s not something cooked up in the Labour spin machine or Shells public relation office. It’s a sign of veracity, that it should be beyond reproach, above political parties. So much the worse when someone decide to highjack it for own political agenda. Octopus ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/74 "2003-09-25T13:39:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > They’re also supposed to be independent of all other political influences. And the government is supposed to guarantee that. When The BBC says something people are supposed to be able to assume it’s not something cooked up in the Labour spin machine or Shells public relation office. It’s a sign of veracity, that it should be beyond reproach, above political parties. So much the worse when someone decide to highjack it for own political agenda. > > Octopus \*\* What crap. Government spouts bullshit. BBC exposes bullshit. **WinstonSmith** cries: “Tory spin!”, “OK, not Tory spin, anti-Bush spin”. “Well, evil spin coming from some place I can’t identify”. “It’s spin, I can recognise spin even if I haven’t got a fucking clue about the issues, it’s spin because I don’t agree with it”. “And BTW, state sponsored criticism of the state is bad because, well, it’s just, you know…”. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/75 "2003-09-25T14:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > \*\*Or do you think he’s just too stupid to notice much of anything taken place around him? > \*\* Yep. > [@](#): > > [url="[http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/25/opinion/25THU1.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/25/opinion/25THU1.html)"_From the NYTimes editorial page_ > Mr. Bush and his aides also seem to go to great lengths to underline the degree to which the president closes himself off from the news media. In an interview with Fox News this week, the president said he learned most of what he needs to know from morning briefings by his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, and his chief of staff, Andrew Card. > > As for newspapers, Mr. Bush said, “I glance at the headlines” but “rarely read the stories.” The people who brief him on current events encounter many of the newsmakers personally, he said, and in any case “probably read the news themselves.” I think he _is_ clueless. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/76 "2003-09-25T14:13:08Z")
[:rolleyes:](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/25/opinion/25THU1.html) Preview is your friend. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/77 "2003-09-25T14:33:05Z")
> [@](#): > > he learned most of what he needs to know from morning briefings by his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, and his chief of staff, Andrew Card. > > As for newspapers, Mr. Bush said, “I glance at the headlines” but “rarely read the stories.” The people who brief him on current events encounter many of the newsmakers personally, he said, and in any case “probably read the news themselves.” Oh, sweet Jesus, what have we gotten ourselves into with this guy? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/78 "2003-09-25T15:44:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > \*\*Oh, sweet Jesus, what have we gotten ourselves into with this guy? :eek: \*\* Don’t blame me-- I voted for Kordos! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521/79 "2003-09-27T18:58:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > \*\*Don’t blame me-- I voted for Kordos! > > 😉 \*\* Don’t blame either—I voted for Rasmussen. However I don’t know what’s more stupid. The stupid guy, or a people stupid enough to vote in the stupid guy? On second thought I know. So am I by all this to assume the old slur of stupid Americans is true afterall? What crap. Government spouts bullshit. BBC creates bullshit. Desmostylus eats bullshit. - Rune [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-the-un/203521.md?page=3)