Certainly, express it all you want. It’s just misplaced in my opinion.
It has occurred to me that it shouldn’t be offensive to others. Are we not supposed to be able to express our religious beliefs freely and without unreasonable constraint in this country? I don’t get offended when Muhammad Ali, whom I regard highly, speaks of his Muslim faith. I don’t get offended when my mother, who has adopted the Hindu faith, speaks of it. Why is it all of a sudden cause for high dudgeon when someone expresses their Christian beliefs?
I could get offended over your screen name. Would that make my taking offense legitimate?
You are reading way too much into either what I’ve said or what GWB said. No one is speaking of your hard work (or even your life) at all.
Again, people in this country (and all around the world, for that matter) decide for themselves what is offensive. The simple fact that you decide to take offense at something is not sufficient grounds for it to be silenced. There is no Consitutional right to freedom from offense. If no one could say anything that someone somewhere might take offense at, to speak at all would be impossible.
Bush’s comment really isn’t that offensive in the grand scheme of things but it touches on a raw nerve for a lot of people (including me). It annoys me when someone tells me that all I need is ‘faith in the Lord’ or tells me that I should ‘thank the Lord for my blessings’. It in my opinion devalues the hard work that I have put into my accomplishments (small as they may be).
I never said nor implied that there was. Its not exactly a surprise that atheists take offense at a lot of religious comments. The problem I have with Bush’s comments is that he thinks that my atheism is somehow a handicap or a detriment to me. He may not believe it but atheists can cope with stress and hardship just as well as theists.
He’s free to express whatever he likes (and incidentally, I am EXTREMELY tired of being accused of wanting to restrict others’ freedom of speech when I complain about what they have to say).
But certainly, religious opinions of Christians can be deeply offensive to others. Nine-tenths of what certain Christians say about me, for example, straddle the line between offensive and comical.
Actually, it’s not. I called bullshit on claiming that an ediorialization devoid of direction quotation is necessarily (or should be assumed to be) factual . Not that summarization without quotes is in and of itself bullshit.
See, pays to be careful with how you represent text, and suspicious of those who try to summarize another’s words. Nuance and personal meaning are too easy to get lost.
Having been an English major and done a tiny bit of journalism, I know it’s possible to string together a series of shorter quotes to get at a larger picture or prove a point. It’s also possible to refrence an entire block of text and then editorialize.
I did see your example
Any act of representation is an act of interpretation, however slight.
So we can agree to interpret his remarks differently, but that he’s an assclown in any case. Deal
But don’t you see, that isn’t what Bush was doing. Again, I think you (and to a much larger degree, FinnAgain) are reading way too much into what Bush both said and meant.
Frankly, I don’t believe Bush was giving atheists a thought when he made his remarks. He was merely expressing his gratitude that he had his faith to support him in dealing with all the pressures and problems he has to confront in his presidency. He wasn’t saying no one could deal with these pressures and problems without that faith, only that he couldn’t understand how.
I don’t understand how people can live happily on the banks of the Amazon living in mud huts and eating fish all the time. But the fact that I can’t understand how they could be happy doesn’t I don’t believe they are.
I hope you can see the similarity in my rather poor analogy. The point is, Bush’s gratitude toward his own Christian faith does not automatically equate to a condemnation of other faiths or atheism.
treis’ extended quote actually makes it a bit worse.
One of things that makes us different from the Taliban is that we don’t force religious views on people. ON THE OTHER HAND he doesn’t see.
What is this “other hand” business? The Taliban are evil, on the other hand, they have the right idea when it comes to leadership?
I don’t think this is a particularly bad statement. Bush clearly does respect the right of non-Christians to exist and be patriots in America, and he can say it and I’ve several times on this board given him credit for it (even Democratic Presidents have avoided such language). But he does seem to hold to the idea that people without religious belief are missing a crucial support necessary to be good people and good leaders. It’s not a very uncommon or surprising view, really. Even Jimmy Carter probably would agree, though he probably wouldn’t come out and say it.
It’s possible, I’ve had people tell me that I over analyze things
For what it’s worth, I believe my interpretation, while quite possibly wrong, is in accord with what I know about the man.
Yet another thread started and maintained by those who have nothing better to do than focus on minutae. The man expressed his personal views regarding himself-the same as you and I are free to do, but because he is someone you don’t care for, it’s time to exhume the bleached white bones for another beating of a horse so long dead it’s name is forgotten.
I can’t imagine how folks could live in a house without working smoke detectors. Am I making a disparaging comment about those who live without such inexpensive protection? Is that a class-based castigation of the less-fortunate? Of course not.
Please stick to pitting things which have substance and reality, and stop the fapping while you pore over the latest news in search of a crumb you’d like to have viewed as a whole cake.
They are both viewpoints, opinions of the party speaking.
Bull. You’d be stating your opinion, to which you’re entitled, no differently than if you said “I don’t see how a 40-something guy could possibly be an effective firefighter.” I’m not slighted. You’re entitled to that opinion, however misguided it may be, because being misguided and confused is your prerogative.
I know they’re viewpoints. But viewpoints can be obnoxious quite easily.
Um… when did I not say I’d be stating my opinion, or entitled to state my opinion? I’m simply saying that if I held the opinion that “No Christian could possibly do my work, because their stupid faith would get in the way.” Well, that might, just might, be offensive to some Christians.
Although the analogy is not isomorphic with Bush’s quote, it would still mean that I was passing judgement on the capabilities of a group of people.
Further, as I pointed out earlier, Bush didn’t say “be an effective…” he simply said “be…”
The difference in connotation is massive.
Where have I said it isn’t my perogative? ~baffled~
Being entitled to an opinion doesn’t make it right (as you’ve pretty much just said) nor does something being an opinion make it not assholeish.
Or, to use the example which was already given “I don’t see how anybody without a penis could possibly do a good job.”
“That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or any denomination of Christians in particular. […snip…] I do not think I could myself, be brought to support a man for office, whom I knew to be an open enemy of, and scoffer at, religion.”
Didn’t we have a thread here some time ago that pointed out that the statement Reagan was whining about (“there you go again”) was actually correct? If you’re going to mention Reagan as the greatest President of the century (hoo boy, that was fun to type), you should’ve probably picked a better quote.
Count me amongst those who have no idea what all the brouhaha is about in this thread, except, it seems, for some of the usual posters to do their usual political advertising.
Re: Mr. Bush, if he really believes God is helping him make Presidential decisions, either he hasn’t been listening very carefully or God is an even bigger schmuck than GWB is.
