# "Bush thumped the Dems" meme **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087 "2004-11-16T18:14:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/102 "2004-11-21T05:25:25Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > I guess your idea of “overt support” is when the media is no longer Bush’s lap-dog, when the media actually is willing to point out that Bush is completely lying and distorting reality (even if they often still insist on doing it within a context of pointing out distortions on both sides when both sides aren’t distorting equally or as flagrantly). > > Yeah, I guess anything less than the media being Bush’s unquestioning outlet for his distortion, half-truths, and propaganda more befitting of the former Soviet Union than a true democracy is considered the media giving Kerry their “overt support”. According to the Center for Media and Public Affairs at George Mason University [Kerry Gets Best Press Ever](http://www.cmpa.com/documents/04.10.29.Kerry.Final.pdf) (warning: PDF). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/103 "2004-11-21T05:38:26Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > What on earth are you talking about? > What trend did I claim? “Trend” was a very poor choice of words on my part. I should have said that drawing general conclusions about the electorate based on Senate race results is flawed. Re-read the earlier posts when this was addressed. It’s very unusual for a Senate or House incumbent to get defeated. > [@](#): > > Also, even if we don’t count the Keyes-Obama race, the Democrats still got > 37.8 million votes versus 3.65 million votes for Republicans in Senate races. That was just one example. > [@](#): > > So, I still don’t see the data supporting the claim “The Democratic Party is out of touch with American voters” You have to stop looking at raw votes and instead looking at results. This election put more Republicans in both the Senate and the House than were there after the last election cycle. That’s what matters. > [@](#): > > Are you seriously accusing me of thinking that Alan Keyes and the IL race was typical of election races across the country? I thought you had more debate-integrity. It was an exageration to make a point. Apparently that point was lost on you. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/104 "2004-11-21T13:38:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Like with ABC news issuing direction and memos that it’s OK to give greater scrutiny to Bush’s claims than to Kerry’s, because in their judgement it was more important to critique Bush’s claims? > > Yes, I see. Like you making up what the ABC news memo actually said…which was that the reporters should not pretend that both candidates are distorting each other’s records equally flagrantly just to appear to be balanced when this is not in fact the case. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/105 "2004-11-21T13:43:03Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > According to the Center for Media and Public Affairs at George Mason University [Kerry Gets Best Press Ever](http://www.cmpa.com/documents/04.10.29.Kerry.Final.pdf) (warning: PDF). And, their methodology is what exactly? One has to be suspicious of a methodology that found equally positive coverage for Bush and Gore in 2000. (As near as I can tell from a quick glance, the methodology they use would consider press coverage for Kerry positive if after the first debate they noted that most observers and citizens thought that Kerry had performed better than Bush rather than saying the two were equal. In fact, they don’t even seem to **claim** they are studying media bias but rather if press is positive or negative.) ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/106 "2004-11-22T17:05:14Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > “Trend” was a very poor choice of words on my part. I should have said that drawing general conclusions about the electorate based on Senate race results is flawed. Re-read the earlier posts when this was addressed. It’s very unusual for a Senate or House incumbent to get defeated. If you want to play that game, it’s very unusual for wartime presidents to get defeated, so there is no reason to take Bush’s victory as an indication of failure by the Democrats. > [@](#): > > You have to stop looking at raw votes and instead looking at results. This election put more Republicans in both the Senate and the House than were there after the last election cycle. That’s what matters. I agree that that’s what matters in terms of who currently has power in Washington. But, the number of Senate and House seats only tells us that. It does not tell us that the Democratic party platform is “out of touch” with the American electorate, because the symptom of a party that is “out of touch” is that it gets very few votes, something that clearly does not apply to the Democratic party in '04. As I said above, if a presidential candidate gets 55% of the popular vote but loses the electoral college (which is possible), yes, “all that matters” is that he lost the electoral college and he won’t be president, but you can hardly say that he was “out of touch” with the American voters (since most of them voted for him) > [@](#): > > It was an exageration to make a point. Apparently that point was lost on you. You say tomahto, I say tomato. You say exageration, I say strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/107 "2004-11-22T17:10:26Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > And, their methodology is what exactly? One has to be suspicious of a methodology that found equally positive coverage for Bush and Gore in 2000. But don’t you see, **jshore**? People around here are only suspicious of the methodology of studies that show negative results for Republicans (e.g. the PIPA study). Only then do they arrive in the thread _en masse_ and question the methodology, and even if the methodology comes out right, they question whether the results mean anything. In the cite provided by **John Mace** , we have a stellar study that consists of exactly 1 page with a summary of conclusions, so it \*\*must \*\* be right. How can you be questioning it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/108 "2004-11-22T17:11:38Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Like you making up what the ABC news memo actually said…which was that the reporters should not pretend that both candidates are distorting each other’s records equally flagrantly just to appear to be balanced when this is not in fact the case. OK - taking your characterization over mine… does yours suggest that ABC is directing its reporters to be biased towards Bush? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/109 "2004-11-22T17:20:42Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > In the cite provided by **John Mace** , we have a stellar study that consists of exactly 1 page with a summary of conclusions, so it \*\*must \*\* be right. How can you be questioning it? Which is 1 more page than ANYONE in this thread, including you, have offered on that subject. Go directly to their website if you want to see what their methodology is. They are not looking for bias, just favorable vs unfavorable. It’s hard enough to measure that subjective attribute, and I think darn near impossible to measure bias. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/110 "2004-11-22T17:50:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK - taking your characterization over mine… does yours suggest that ABC is directing its reporters to be biased towards Bush? No…I do think there was some improvement in news coverage this time around, although there was still a tendency in the media after the debate to try to point out an equal number of incorrect facts on both sides which often had them sort of reaching to come up with as many examples for Kerry as they had for Bush. And, of course, we know from the PIPA study that the media still left people extremely ignorant in regards to the facts regarding Iraq, the view of the world community on Bush and Kerry, and Bush’s positions on several other international policy issues ranging from the International Criminal Court to the incorporation of environmental and labor standards in trade agreements. And, it is very hard to explain how any sort of left-leaning media could do such a piss-poor job in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/111 "2004-11-22T18:51:43Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > No…I do think there was some improvement in news coverage this time around, although there was still a tendency in the media after the debate to try to point out an equal number of incorrect facts on both sides which often had them sort of reaching to come up with as many examples for Kerry as they had for Bush. I made my inital comment to rebut the idea that the media was Bush’s “lap-dog.” It’s unclear to me if you’re defending this claim or not now, since you’ve acknowledged that there was “improvement” in the media. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/112 "2004-11-22T22:04:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I made my inital comment to rebut the idea that the media was Bush’s “lap-dog.” > > It’s unclear to me if you’re defending this claim or not now, since you’ve acknowledged that there was “improvement” in the media. Here is the context in which I used that word in response to a post of **Sam Stone** ’s: > [@Bricker](#): > > I guess your idea of “overt support” is when the media is no longer Bush’s lap-dog, when the media actually is willing to point out that Bush is completely lying and distorting reality (even if they often still insist on doing it within a context of pointing out distortions on both sides when both sides aren’t distorting equally or as flagrantly). So, I think my implication was clear that now that now the media is not being Bush’s lap-dog and from **Sam Stone** ’s point of view that looks like a pro-Kerry bias. Overall, and leaving Fox News out of it, I think the media did an okay job with the election. Clearly, it was still not that wonderful since FAIR has documented a fair number of issues they had with the coverage and, more importantly, the public (and in particular, Bush supporters) continued to hold counterfactual beliefs on some very important issues (as the PIPA report documented) that I think the media needs to do a better job in dispelling (or at least not propagating!). We can’t really have a well-functioning democracy if a large portion of the public is so ignorant on some of the most important policy issues. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/113 "2004-11-22T22:09:25Z")
Bad cut-and-paste job there. Clearly, the second quote in my last post is from myself and not from **Bricker**. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087/114 "2004-11-22T22:22:41Z")
I just wanted to thank the OP for starting this thread and taking some unwarranted heat at the beginning. I think that these few pages of debate have been pretty enlightening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-thumped-the-dems-meme/275087.md?page=5)