Bush to announce new Iraq policy Wednesday

[Burton]

I’m saying screw the Iraqi government, they’re as much a part of the problem as any other player. That’s why I said we don’t have the balls. Everything is wrong, not the tiny little bit Bush admitted last night.

We need to start all over or go home. Neither choice is attractive.

[Squink]

@Burton

I’m saying screw the Iraqi government, they’re as much a part of the problem as any other player.

But they were Democratically elected! They represent the only chance for freedom to ring out in that war torn country. If we stomp on them too hard, the best we’ll ever accomplish is a puppet dictatorship.

[RickJay]

@Burton

We should leave now. However, the objective is to stop internecine warfare. That’s why people like Sadr need to be put down. The present govenment if you want to call it that is ineffective at best not worth propping up.

Sadr city should be bulldozed.

I don’t think you quite grasp the enormity of what you just said.

Sadr City has - conservatively - 1.5 million people in it, and estimates run as high as 2.5 million You’re talking about a suburb that is bigger than the cities of San Francisco and Oakland combined. It would be like bulldozing Brooklyn. There aren’t enough bulldozers in the Middle East to do this, and even if there were it would be an evil act, a crime against humanity of the most grevious nature that would make the USA just as bad than al-Qaida. You’d be causing a refugee crises far beyond anyone’s capacity to handle and killing thousands upon tens of thousands of innocent people.

[Burton]

2.5 million people? Really I didn’t know it was that big. That isn’t too practical is it.
Nevertheless drastic measures are called for. Even Bush said as much last night in a round about way. The militias have to be disarmed and dispersed.

“But they were Democratically elected!” We had no problem invading a sovereign nation on false pretenses why should pulling the plug on Maliki be a big deal?

I guess we should continue to let our sons and daughters die for Dick Cheney, KBR and the oil companies. We made the mess afterall. What alternatives do you suggest?

[alphaboi867]

@Squink

But they were Democratically elected! They represent the only chance for freedom to ring out in that war torn country. If we stomp on them too hard, the best we’ll ever accomplish is a puppet dictatorship.

Being “democratically elected” doesn’t mean shit. Salvador Allende was “democratically elected” and the US still helped overthrown him and put a military dictator is place because it suited our intrests.

[Squink]

@alphaboi867

Being “democratically elected” doesn’t mean shit.

Oh, but it does if we’re trying to build a beacon of hope for the oppressed masses in Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, Syria, etc. etc. as Bush suggested last night. Personally I favor a rapid phased withdrawal starting real soon, but those who still think that there’s a hope of accomplishing the mission cannot afford to beat on Malaki or the Shiite majority too hard, lest they shatter their own vision.

[BrainGlutton]

On a quick review of post-speech posts in this thread – everybody posting so far seems to think the “surge” plan is just throwing good money/blood after bad, except for Burton who thinks it’s too mild.

Isn’t there anybody in this forum who thinks W’s new plan can work?!

Please pop in and tell us!

So we can do horrible things to you.*

*Because you’re here and W isn’t, you see.

[Marley23]

@Burton

Nevertheless drastic measures are called for.

No, some fucking sense is called for. The last thing anybody needs is action that hasn’t been thought through.

“But they were Democratically elected!” We had no problem invading a sovereign nation on false pretenses why should pulling the plug on Maliki be a big deal?

Because Maliki’s our guy, except when he says he isn’t, and getting rid of him would eliminate any pretense we have about liberating Iraq and spreading democracy, which is the last illusion the administration can still cling to. So they won’t give up on it easily.

[RTFirefly]

@Marley23

No, some fucking sense is called for. The last thing anybody needs is action that hasn’t been thought through.

Hey, let’s not get hasty here! Can’t expect Bush to change that radically overnight, y’know.

[BrainGlutton]

Remember that the American people were against the Vietnam War two-to-one from 1968 onward. (Discussed here.) But we didn’t pull our last troops out until 1974.

[RTFirefly]

And then there’s the Iraqi part of the ‘surge’:

Kurdish soldiers from northern Iraq, who are mostly Sunnis but not Arabs, are deserting the army to avoid the civil war in Baghdad, a conflict they consider someone else’s problem.

Anyone surprised by this?

The Iraqi army brigades being sent to the capital are filled with former members of a Kurdish militia, the peshmerga, and most of the soldiers remain loyal to the militia.

Much as Shiite militias have infiltrated the Iraqi security forces across Arab Iraq, the peshmerga fill the ranks of the Iraqi army in the Kurdish region in the north, poised to secure a semi-independent Kurdistan and seize oil-rich Kirkuk and parts of Mosul if Iraq falls apart. One thing they didn’t bank on, they said, was being sent into the “fire” of Baghdad.

“The soldiers don’t know the Arabic language, the Arab tradition, and they don’t have any experience fighting terror,” said Anwar Dolani, a former peshmerga commander who leads the brigade that’s being transferred to Baghdad from the Kurdish city of Sulaimaniyah.

Dolani called the desertions a “phenomenon” but refused to say how many soldiers have left the army.

“I can’t deny that a number of soldiers have deserted the army, and it might increase due to the ferocious military operations in Baghdad,” he said.

“This is the biggest performance through which we can test them,” said Lt. Gen. Ali Ghaidan, the commander of land forces for the Iraqi Ministry of Defense. The Kurdish soldiers will be using translators, and they’ll start off doing less dangerous tasks, such as manning checkpoints with Arab soldiers, he said.

In interviews, however, soldiers in Sulaimaniyah expressed loyalty to their Kurdish brethren, not to Iraq. Many said they’d already deserted, and those who are going to Baghdad said they’d flee if the situation there became too difficult.

“I joined the army to be a soldier in my homeland, among my people. Not to fight for others who I have nothing to do with,” said Ameen Kareem, 38, who took a week’s leave with other soldiers from his brigade in Irbil and never returned. “I used to fight in the mountains and valleys, not in the streets.”

Kareem said he knew that deserting was risky, but he said he’d rather be behind bars in Kurdistan than a “soldier in Baghdad’s fire.” Without the language and with his Kurdish features, he was sure he would stand out, he said. He’s a Kurd, he said, and he has no reason to become a target in an Arab war.

Now he drives a taxi in Sulaimaniyah, eking out a living and praying that he doesn’t get caught.

[Squink]

@RTFirefly

And then there’s the Iraqi part of the ‘surge’:
Anyone surprised by this?

Shocked, Shocked!
Refusal by southern units of the Iraqi army to redeploy to Baghdad was reportedly one of the big reasons Maliki’s first push to calm the capital failed.

[jayjay]

Not surprising. The administration refuses to recognize that there’s a civil war going on. It shouldn’t be a shock to discover that just because the Kurds have been sitting it out doesn’t mean they don’t have a dog in the fight.

[Der_Trihs]

@jayjay

Not surprising. The administration refuses to recognize that there’s a civil war going on. It shouldn’t be a shock to discover that just because the Kurds have been sitting it out doesn’t mean they don’t have a dog in the fight.

Actually, the problem is that they don’t have a dog in the fight. Note the bolded :

In interviews, however, soldiers in Sulaimaniyah expressed loyalty to their Kurdish brethren, not to Iraq. Many said they’d already deserted, and those who are going to Baghdad said they’d flee if the situation there became too difficult.

"I joined the army to be a soldier in my homeland, among my people. Not to fight for others who I have nothing to do with," said Ameen Kareem, 38, who took a week’s leave with other soldiers from his brigade in Irbil and never returned. “I used to fight in the mountains and valleys, not in the streets.”

Simply put, as many people have pointed out, Iraq is an artificial creation, and there are few people who have loyalty to it over their own ethnic or religious or political faction. The problem with getting the Kurds to fight for Iraq is that they simply don’t care about Iraq.

[jayjay]

Actually, that’s what I’m saying. Their dog in this fight is the creation of Kurdistan after Iraq implodes. They obviously realize that they don’t HAVE to do anything to make the implosion of Iraq happen. They just have to be there to pick up their own pieces.

The Kurds have had the superglue at the ready for decades…

[RedFury]

@Burton

The alternative is something we don’t have the balls for.

A real occupation, no real Iraqi government and ruthless supression of anyone who opposes our interests.

Would you be kind enough to cite any speech and/or article given by any member of this – or the past – BushCo Administration that states that your genuine “interest in Iraq” (Read:Middle-eastern oil supplies) are the only “legitimate” reason your country went on this genocide spree?

Thought not.

[RedFury]

PS-Proud of your nation’s actions, are you? How does that go?

Rah rah, USA #1?