# Bush to expand size of military **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855 "2006-12-20T00:55:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/21 "2006-12-20T18:53:10Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Hard to tell, from that, whether you’re arguing for or against the idea of America having an empire. [/QUOTE] Which position you hold is _irrelavant_. The lights are going out, one by one, & they _have been_ since I was a kid. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/22 "2006-12-20T21:54:17Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] Which position you hold is _irrelavant_. The lights are going out, one by one, & they _have been_ since I was a kid. [/QUOTE] In terms of American projection of military force abroad, I don’t see that. The trend is rather the reverse. I heard on the radio this afternoon, when announcing the military buildup, W said “we are at **the beginning of** a long conflict.” :eek: ☹ :mad: :mad: :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/23 "2006-12-20T22:05:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Hard to tell, from that, whether you’re arguing for or against the idea of America having an empire. [/QUOTE] No argument either way, merely an observation. Every empire eventually deems it necessary to reinforce its economic hold over outlying provinces by military means, and hardens its shell at just beyond its furthest point of reach, whereupon it commences rotting from the inside. Why should we be any different? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/24 "2006-12-20T22:24:22Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] I have long said a draft is called for. [/QUOTE] The people who know anything about the military think that this is a stupid idea. The people who don’t know squat about the military but are in a position to call the shots recognize it as a politically suicidal idea. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/25 "2006-12-20T22:31:07Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] No argument either way, merely an observation. Every empire eventually deems it necessary to reinforce its economic hold over outlying provinces by military means, and hardens its shell at just beyond its furthest point of reach, whereupon it commences rotting from the inside. Why should we be any different? [/QUOTE] Because we have the option of letting go of the provinces, and still remaining strong, rich, safe and free. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/26 "2006-12-21T04:17:21Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Because we have the option of letting go of the provinces, and still remaining strong, rich, safe and free. [/QUOTE] Think relative, not absolute. Strong, probably, but certainly less so, both in the short term and in the long term; rich, less in the short term and possibly though not certainly the long term; possibly less safe in the short term, probably more safe in the short term. See any of the former colonial/imperial powers whose larger domains have withered: Britain, France, Japan, Portugal, the Ottomans, yada yada yada. The fact that strength, wealth, and safety, after being reduced, are still at acceptable levels is not what is significant; the fact that they’re being reduced _at all_ is what makes your suggestion anathema. And not just to the elites, either, but to the population at large. Of the precedent powers, some surrendered their holdings only when they accepted the painful realization that they lacked any rational alternative; the rest simply lived in denial and eventually lost their grip. Not one had the wisdom to choose your path while other short-term options were available, _not one._ There’s no reason to believe that we will be the first. But… as for more free? What the hell, sure, that I’ll stipulate. It can’t be boiled down to an objective metric, so no point in arguing about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/27 "2006-12-21T14:34:57Z")
I was wondering not only where we would get the bodies, but where we would get the $ to pay for them. So I was reassured this morning in the paper when I saw that Bush was proposing to attach additional tax cuts to any minimum wage legislation. It all makes so much sense. Was really disappointed in the Daily Show the other day. When JD’s guest said we had to salvage the chance to “win this war”, JD asked “what does ‘winning’ mean?” - but then didn’t press him to answer. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/28 "2006-12-21T15:33:02Z")
Relevant [cartoon.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/toles_main.html?name=Toles&date=11202006) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/29 "2006-12-21T19:23:38Z")
Logic and the truth of what is actually happening in Iraq have no effect on Bush. When he has said god chose him at this time to be president,how could simple reality compete. He will not stop until impeachment slows him down . He is planning on going into Iran too . Why not we are winning in Iraq.(he thinks so) ---
**Author:** ![Don26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@Don26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don26)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/30 "2006-12-25T18:13:48Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, we’re **not, Paul.** We are in a war from which **we** have the option to walk away at any time. It’s a very rare and enviable situation, but W can’t see how to take advantage of it. [/QUOTE] No, we do not have the option to walk away. We DO have the option not to fight. Is standing and being pummeled better in your worldview than fighting back? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/31 "2006-12-25T20:55:55Z")
[QUOTE=Don26] No, we do not have the option to walk away. We DO have the option not to fight. Is standing and being pummeled better in your worldview than fighting back? [/QUOTE] If we withdraw our troops from Iraq, the insurgents are **not** going to chase them home. As for the “War on Terror,” that’s an entirely different matter (I **hope** everyone understands that by now) – and an entirely different kind of problem. Outside of exceptional circumstances like Afghanistan in 2001, using an army to fight terrorists is like using a machine gun to rid a house of termites. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/32 "2006-12-25T22:30:13Z")
And, in obviously unrelated news :dubious: the Selective Service System is undergoing a massive readiness drill. [http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061224/NEWS07/612240542/1009/NEWS07](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061224/NEWS07/612240542/1009/NEWS07) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/33 "2006-12-25T22:49:39Z")
[QUOTE=Don26] No, we do not have the option to walk away. [/quote] 'Course we do. It’s easy. It’s just difficult to accept that it’s the best thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Don26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@Don26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don26)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/34 "2006-12-26T00:00:41Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] 'Course we do. It’s easy. It’s just difficult to accept that it’s the best thing to do. [/QUOTE] OK, we CAN walk away, what we cannot do is walk away and expect not to be attacked. Peace through Strength works. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/35 "2006-12-26T00:50:20Z")
**Don** appears to be confusing the Iraqi adventure with the war on terrorism. Well, I guess they are now, in that we shouldn’t be surprised if a major act of terrorism on American soil will someday be set in motion due to an Iraqi terrorist. We sorta have it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Don26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@Don26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don26)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/36 "2006-12-26T00:59:45Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] **Don** appears to be confusing the Iraqi adventure with the war on terrorism. Well, I guess they are now, in that we shouldn’t be surprised if a major act of terrorism on American soil will someday be set in motion due to an Iraqi terrorist. We sorta have it coming. [/QUOTE] The Iraqi Adventure (sounds like a bang up ride at Universal Studios) as you call it has ALWAYS BEEN nothing more than a battlefront in the War on Terror. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/37 "2006-12-26T01:06:06Z")
[QUOTE=Don26] The Iraqi Adventure (sounds like a bang up ride at Universal Studios) as you call it has ALWAYS BEEN nothing more than a battlefront in the War on Terror. [/QUOTE] Thanks, George, but Babs and Laura miss you at the holiday table. Best get back to them. We’re smarter than that here, anyway, so you’re wasting your time. Merry Christmas! ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/38 "2006-12-26T03:09:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] As for the “War on Terror,” that’s an entirely different matter (I **hope** everyone understands that by now) [/QUOTE] Your are certainly entitled to hope. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/39 "2006-12-26T03:30:23Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Well, the word now is that we don’t have 400000 troops available for Iraq in which case we didn’t have them in 2003 either and the chiefs and Rumsfeld knew it. I think it quite possible that the 400000 estimate was a way for the military chiefs to say, “This is a bad idea and is beyond our capability with an army and marine corps of their present size.” Increasing the authorized strength of the army and marine corps isn’t of any use in Iraq right now and won’t be for several years. The increase is for the “global war on terrorism” and indicates that GW still thinks that military force will defeat terrorism. That’s just plain nuts. [/QUOTE] I’ve nothing to add, but to lend support to this statement. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855/40 "2006-12-26T04:41:38Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] The people who know anything about the military think that this is a stupid idea. The people who don’t know squat about the military but are in a position to call the shots recognize it as a politically suicidal idea. [/QUOTE] I am a graduate of the Command and General Staff College. If we forced to politicians to pay a political and economic price for their follies, perhaps there would be fewer of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-to-expand-size-of-military/384855.md?page=3)