# Bush & Tom Ridge Want To Amnesty 12 Million Illegals - Isn't This Treason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809 "2003-12-24T07:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/181 "2003-12-29T02:54:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Millen88 \* > And I suppose your advice to Tibetans living under Chinese occupation would be: Just accept the destruction of your nation, and then you’ll have fewer problems. And I would respond that I never said a single word about the situation in Tibet. I would also add that I would appreciate it if you read my posts before you responded ot them. I would also add that I would appreciate it if you would apologize for spewing such a hateful lie against me. But I’m not going to hold my breath and wait for you to do so. When the Chinese government kills Tibetan people, that’s bad for Tibetan people. When Hispanic immigrants move to the United States, that’s good for everyone in the United States. Thus, there’s no comparison between the two situations. > [@](#): > > My French scenario does not rely on that assumption. It’s just based on my beliefs that most ethnic groups tend vote for their own interests, and French Culture is worth saving. So in other words, it does rely on that assumption. > [@](#): > > What if you thought my French scenario was a possibility? What would you do? Is this something you’d support? Your scenario is not a possibility, so that doesn’t matter. However, I am a supporter of free constitutional democracy. If your scenario came true, I would support free constitutional democracy. ---
**Author:** ![RobbieFal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c5a1d2/32.png) [@RobbieFal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobbieFal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/182 "2003-12-29T02:59:25Z")
Let me take this cruel stance… if you don’t like the President for not being conservative enough, then I approve of you choosing to not vote for him. Because lets face it, nothing entertains me more than Conservative v. Republican flamewars such as ‘Bush really isn’t doing much on immigration’ v. ‘You want President Dean’. I can see that there is a potential that some terrorists or criminals can come into the country, and that’s not really desirable. If you say Bush really hasn’t done much there, then ok, don’t vote for him. Although, I will say that the general idea of immigrants being lazy and unmotivated to learn our language and whatever is a load of crap. First, there are good reasons to speak Spanish with friends, like if you’re having a private conversation and you don’t want people to know what your talking about. Second, it’s not easy to become a good English speaker. You get some people who probably aren’t comfortable with their English and whatever. As for stealing jobs. If you’re an American and you want to become a small-time farmer in California, go for it. The only places where I think jobs are going from Americans to Mexicans are the factories that are moving to Mexico. Anyways, with the scare talk from White nationalist morons about whites being minorities, you’d think that the moment that happens, the genocide begins. But, I’d say that’s just a load a crap. One day people will figure out to stop paying attention to ethnicity or race and start paying attention to more important stuff in their lives. I will say this… if you don’t wanna vote for the President, don’t do it. While I don’t like the stances by those on the far right, if they can help accomplish something I want (a new President), then good for them. In the long runs of political stuff, we’re all tools in one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/183 "2003-12-29T22:54:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **I am afraid you now appear to be lying.** One of the things I love most about internet forums, is how easy it is to reveal the true character of the typical liberal. > [@](#): > > **When I pointed out that race was an invention, you claimed that it was real,** Yeah, both the Supreme Court and I. But, of course, you know better. > [@](#): > > **… and appealed to the identifications of oak trees and _genus_ (rather than the topic of race).** Just to show you the error in the manner in which you were using the term “invented”. > [@](#): > > **I wrote a rebuttal using the word “group” to note that the _racial_ category was invented. You then replied:Clearly, you are claiming that the “groups” (_races_) existed independently of the categories invented by scientists. You then go on to talk about the thousands of years of evolution that explain the (supposed) differences between the “intelligence, skills and traditions” of the various “groups” (_races_). Had you meant something different (which your inclusion of the word _traditions_ belies), you should have said something different–or at least corrected it some time during the last dozen or so exchanged posts.** Here is where you are being deceitful. You intentionally omitted an important part of my reply. > [@](#): > > _I wrote_ > > **While the genetic diversity of the groups may be minimal** , it is through thousands of years of evolution that explains the differences in intelligence, skills and traditions of the different groups. See, I de-emphasized the “group” (race) differences, but you chose to deliberately mischaracterize what I wrote. Sir, I can no longer tolerate your deceit and dishonesty. However, I have to admit, these little tete-a-tetes with the liberal ilk are entertaining. I liken them to clubbing baby seals. It’s fun, but it’s so easy, that after awhile, it gets boring. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/184 "2003-12-29T23:01:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\*You lost your bet, we are inmigrants, but not mexicans (that should make feel better) > > Looking forward for your next asinine “Republican vote elimination” post. \*\* Heck, I hate to lose a bet, so I guess it’s not safe to bet that you are legal immigrants, especially from the fit you are pitching over my lamenting the liberal mis-interpretation of the 14th Amendment, so as to, not only allow, but to encourage through the enticement of citizenship, illegals to birth their offspring on American soil. Anyways, what’s up with all the concern over Hispanics and Mexicans. Like I said, I never mentioned any race or ethnicity. Surely it wouldn’t be because those are the primary groups that are doing the trespassing and then burdening the American taxpayers with supporting the fruit of their wombs? Liberals are an odd lot, they will go into an absolute hissy-fit over any accurate portrayal that reveals the inherent degeneracy of their ideology, when name-calling and smearing is their forte. Let’s examine one of liberalism’s biggest smears. Mention the term “hate-crime” to the average individual, and he or she will, almost without fail, have the mental image of a White persecuting a minority. That’s what I mean by a “Through the Looking Glass” worldview. However, reality tells a different story. FBI crime statistics reveal that minorities are several times more likely to commit a “hate-crime” against a White, than the commonly held misperception of minorities being the victims of “hate” perpetrated by Whites. So, how do you suppose that such commonly held misconceptions occur, other than bordering on diliberate conspiracy? So, **GIGObuster** there’s your “Republican vote elimination” post. Make sure you show it to your Republican voting relatives so you can show them the error of their ways. (Yeah, fat chance that you will.) ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/185 "2003-12-29T23:56:33Z")
Que? The rule that birth in the United States confers citizenship (jus soli) is a liberal misinterpretation of the Constitution? That’s what the damn thing _says_. The interpretation is neither recent nor liberal. It dates back to the 1889 case of [_U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark_](http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Wong/Gray.htm), written by Justice Horace Gray, a republican. In fact, jus soli in the United States is older than the 14th Amendment. The majority points out in _Wong Kim_, it was the common law rule in effect prior to its passage, and the 14th Amendment merely established it as a constitutional right that could not be abridged. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/186 "2003-12-30T00:45:31Z")
> [@](#): > > See, I de-emphasized the “group” (race) differences, but you chose to deliberately mischaracterize what I wrote. > > Sir, I can no longer tolerate your deceit and dishonesty. However, I have to admit, these little tete-a-tetes with the liberal ilk are entertaining. I liken them to clubbing baby seals. It’s fun, but it’s so easy, that after awhile, it gets boring. I’m not sure what you think you accomplished by “de-emphasizing” the genetic aspect of the differences when you continue to cling to the notion that there actually _are_ differences among the races (without being able to characterize or quantify those differences or identify those races). I have not mischaracterized your posts; you are simply attempting to weasel out of the statements that you made. Race (both the [scientific notion that has been discarded as not legitimate or useful](http://www.eneubauer.com/Cavalli-Sforza.html) and the social construct that is used to enshrine xenophobia in law) is an invention. You have provided no evidence that it is not, simply whining that you are mischaracterized when your words are held up for review. Feel free to withdraw from the discussion. I find such exchanges simply tedious. Having to debunk the lies of racialists and White Supremacists might have been amusing the first time, but the lies from those camps are always just repeated _ad nauseam_ with no more support thn they had on the first pass. Willfull ignorance is pretty much anathema to The Straight Dope®, and it _is_ taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/187 "2003-12-30T01:13:20Z")
I knew it, you are in a hole and you keep digging. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*Heck, I hate to lose a bet, so I guess it’s not safe to bet that you are legal immigrants, especially from the fit you are pitching over my lamenting the liberal mis-interpretation of the 14th Amendment, so as to, not only allow, but to encourage through the enticement of citizenship, illegals to birth their offspring on American soil. \*\* Denying humanity is your mantra. The point that you missed was that not all Hispanic-Americans, (and all other minority groups in America) are automatically liberals, see how the majority of them did not vote for Bustamante in the last California election. No, it not safe to bet because specially in my case I fled the old country because of treats related to the civil wars in Central America, back then, Reagan decided something unimportant as the death squads was not an impediment to continue supporting the regimes then. > [@](#): > > **Anyways, what’s up with all the concern over Hispanics and Mexicans. Like I said, I never mentioned any race or ethnicity. Surely it wouldn’t be because those are the primary groups that are doing the trespassing and then burdening the American taxpayers with supporting the fruit of their wombs?** Funny, if not Hispanics, the typical talking point of some peculiar people like you was that black people were doing that, I found later that that was also a lie. > [@](#): > > \*\*Liberals are an odd lot, they will go into an absolute hissy-fit over any accurate portrayal that reveals the inherent degeneracy of their ideology, when name-calling and smearing is their forte. \*\* “Squirting” doesn’t sound to me as describing human beings being born, not to mention that they are now Americans, dehumanization is your certified smear here. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Let’s examine one of liberalism’s biggest smears. > > Mention the term “hate-crime” to the average individual, and he or she will, almost without fail, have the mental image of a White persecuting a minority. That’s what I mean by a “Through the Looking Glass” worldview. However, reality tells a different story. > > FBI crime statistics reveal that minorities are several times more likely to commit a “hate-crime” against a White, than the commonly held misperception of minorities being the victims of “hate” perpetrated by Whites. \*\* Apples and oranges, on top of that: a lie: [http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hatecm.htm](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hatecm.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*Table 4. - Number of Known Offenders by Race, 1995 Suspected Offender’s Race Number of Known Offenders > Total: 8,433 > White: 4,991 > Black: 2,253 > American Indian/Alaskan Native: 45 > Asian/Pacific Islander: 211 > Multi-Racial Group: 318 > Unknown :615 \*\* It goes both ways: hate crimes against whites are also investigated and recorded; it is only in your biased mind that this is a liberal smear. On the Hispanic side you should meet our local sheriff Arpaio, he doesn’t treat Hispanics that are guilty of those crimes any differently, and neither do I, a crime is a crime, however some crimes have another reason for existing. > [@](#): > > \*\*So, how do you suppose that such commonly held misconceptions occur, other than > bordering on diliberate conspiracy? \*\* Conspiracy? As the data shows, it is only in your mind. But, I guess it would be a smear to mention that a close relative was pounded to death recently by skinheads and robbery was not the reason. > [@](#): > > \*\*So, **GIGObuster** there’s your “Republican vote elimination” post. Make sure you show it to your Republican voting relatives so you can show them the error of their ways. (Yeah, fat chance that you will.) \*\* Don’t worry, I just gave you the shovel. Also, there is no chance here: you are a liar, and dehumanizing your “enemies” is beyond contempt, good Republicans are ashamed of you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/188 "2003-12-30T03:55:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*Liberals are an odd lot, they will go into an absolute hissy-fit over any accurate portrayal that reveals the inherent degeneracy of their ideology, when name-calling and smearing is their forte. > \*\* Yeah, degenerates just _love_ name-calling. Your whole “hate-crime” argument is ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Mention the term “hate-crime” to the average individual, and he or she will, almost without fail, have the mental image of a White persecuting a minority. That’s what I mean by a “Through the Looking Glass” worldview. However, reality tells a different story. > > FBI crime statistics reveal that minorities are several times more likely to commit a “hate-crime” against a White, than the commonly held misperception of minorities being the victims of “hate” perpetrated by Whites. > > So, how do you suppose that such commonly held misconceptions occur, other than bordering on diliberate conspiracy? What exactly is your point? By your own admission and your claimed FBI statistics (the absolute number of black offenders is lower than white offenders, though I imagine the per capita _rate_ is higher), black offenders **are** being identified (and presumably investigated and prosecuted) as perpetrators. The _reality_ (well, the reality of these statistics; I don’t doubt a number of incidents that could be defined as “hate crimes” go unreported) is that non-whites are (per capita) more likely to offend. But you want to argue the _perception_? Well, who gives a fuck about the perception? Even if you were correct that “the average individual” held a mistaken belief… so what? How does that validate anything you’ve said in this thread? How does it prove that Mexicans (or anyone else) are preparing to genocide whites? You have a _perception_ that American whites are under siege. The _reality_ is that they’re not. As for _how_ this allegedly “commonly held” misconception occured, well, a lot of people believe a lot of incorrect things. Your conspiracy theory angle is silly. By the way, can you define “white”, already? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/189 "2003-12-30T05:46:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > **Liberals are an odd lot, they will go into an absolute hissy-fit over any accurate portrayal that reveals the inherent degeneracy of their ideology, when name-calling and smearing is their forte.** **Bryan Eckers** just quoted this pearl, but I thought it was worth posting on it’s own, as an excercise for the reader. Sometimes you don’t know whether to laugh or cry. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/190 "2003-12-30T20:35:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by RobbieFal \* > \*\* > Anyways, with the scare talk from White nationalist morons about whites being minorities, you’d think that the moment that happens, the genocide begins. But, I’d say that’s just a load a crap._\* Hmmm… where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah, that’s what the annointed were saying about South Africa and Rhodesia. Do you remember Rhodesia? That was the country that was once referred to as "the breadbasket of Africa, but is now known as Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is quite a different place than the former Rhodesia. No longer a “breadbasket”, but more a basket-case of murder and famine. Let’s go to the headlines. > [@](#): > > “The ethnic cleansing of Southern Africa’s commercial farm communities has taken the lives of 1,334 farmers, farm workers and their kin since 1994, the year the ANC took power. The farmers were killed most often in violent, organized attacks, always by young African males. Add to the death toll 12 farmers killed in Zimbabwe and four in Namibia. In 85 percent of the killings, not one item was stolen from the farms and farmhouses.” > South African President Thabo Mbeki has called the farm murders of whites “the final stage of the revolution.” [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=28421](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28421) > [@](#): > > “While the words ‘peace’, ‘democracy’, ‘reconciliation’ and ‘justice’ are gushing out like verbal diarrhea from politicians’ mouths, something totally different is gushing out from countless defenceless, innocent victims : Blood and guts. Now classified under the euphemism ‘crime’, the terror continues unabated, - if anything, worse than ever before. The aim is still the same : To drive out the white man and to intimidate all opposition, white and black. The focus is still on lonely farms and on the weak and helpless : Especially the elderly, women, even babies are brutally attacked, beaten, raped and killed. The politically correct, fawning media reports the ‘crime’ on page 4, it even makes clucking noises every now and then, - but none dare call it what it is : Terrorism in its pure, unadulterated form. Terrorism aided and abetted by the Regime in its many forms and variations : Be they Ministers like Peter Mokaba shouting 'Kill the Boer”, Missies Mandela screaming out hate-speech, hit-squads slaying opposition politicians, or the gullible mob doing the butchering on the streets, inside houses, at the work place, or on farms. By the end of 2001, 7 years into ANC/Communist rule more than 1150 mostly white farmers have already been murdered in the so-called democratic new South Africa." [http://home.mweb.co.za/sa/savimbi/imagesterror.htm](http://home.mweb.co.za/sa/savimbi/imagesterror.htm) (nice pictures too) > [@](#): > > “In the former British colony of Zimbabwe, this is the chaotic scene that has been repeated throughout the country. White-owned farms are being violently taken over by roving bands of disgruntled black citizens, many of whom are self- described veterans of Zimbabwe’s civil war 20 years ago. The violence has led to the murders of five white farmers since February, two killed this week. Farmer David Stephens was shot on Saturday. Then, farmer Martin Olds was murdered Tuesday after his house was firebombed.” [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/jan-june00/zimbabwe\_4-21a.html](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/jan-june00/zimbabwe_4-21a.html) > [@](#): > > “In recent months, Zimbabwe has been in crisis. More than 1,200 white families have been driven off their farms, four white farmers were brutally murdered, 20 other people have been killed, and the government says to expect more land confiscations from whites.” [http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/5/18/164531](http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/5/18/164531) So, **RobbieFal** , you may want to re-think that statement. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/191 "2003-12-30T20:57:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*Hmmm… where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah, that’s what the annointed were saying about South Africa and Rhodesia. > > Do you remember Rhodesia? That was the country that was once referred to as "the breadbasket of Africa, but is now known as Zimbabwe. > > Zimbabwe is quite a different place than the former Rhodesia. No longer a “breadbasket”, but more a basket-case of murder and famine. Let’s go to the headlines.So, **RobbieFal** , you may want to re-think that statement. \*\* Let’s not beat around the bush. Why don’t you tell us: 1. How likely you think that scenario is to repeat itself in the US and why. and 1. What specific policies should we enect in order to avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/192 "2003-12-30T21:33:04Z")
How did the transfer of power in Rhodesia cause the four year drought that wiped out farms and ranches there? Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/193 "2003-12-30T21:35:43Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > with the scare talk from White nationalist morons about whites being minorities, you’d think that the moment that happens, the genocide begins > > Hmmm… where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah, that’s what the annointed were saying about South Africa and Rhodesia. > > Do you remember Rhodesia? That was the country that was once referred to as "the breadbasket of Africa, but is now known as Zimbabwe. > > Zimbabwe is quite a different place than the former Rhodesia. No longer a “breadbasket”, but more a basket-case of murder and famine. Let’s go to the headlines.So, RobbieFal, you may want to re-think that statement. It would be smarter (though less conducive to your errors) to look _beyond_ the headlines. You seem to be implying that the black-on-white genocides predicted for South Africa and Zimbabwe are actually occurring. However, Zimbabwe survived for nearly 20 years (having achieved black-majority rule in 1980) _without_ anything resembling black-on-white genocide. Even today, the hundreds of whites who have been persecuted, including the dozens who have been murdered, is a far smaller number than the black opponents of Mugabe who have been subjected to harrassment and murder. In fact, there is no widespread black-on-white violence. Instead, Mugabe, who has chosen to make himself leader for life (much in the manner of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Salazar, Ceauçescu, and numerous other white leaders who preceded him), decided to maintain his power by emulating his white predecessors by offering the poorest of his supporters land in artificial “land reforms” while identifying an internal minority as the “enemy.” Since the poorest of the poor are black and the largest land-holders are white, the effect gives the appearance of a black-on-white assault (especially to people who choose to read limited reports from the country, looking to support preconceived notions). In reality, _urban_ whites and small farmers have _not_ been subjected to the same harrassment and there is no genocide occurring in the country–just politics as usual for a dictatorship in which one small group of victims happens to be white (while a much larger number of victims whom you choose to ignore are black). And, of course, while things could turn bad in South Africa, as well, there has not yet been _anything_ resembling black-on-white genocide in that country. ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/194 "2003-12-30T21:59:51Z")
Once again **Razorsharp** attempts the tired old ploy of passing off two extremely dissimiliar situations as if they were the same. Though predictably **tomndebb** has managed to provide insight into that issue as well. What I find particularly entertaining is **Razorsharp’s** disparaging characterization of all those who disagree with his racialized worldview as _liberal_. Please do us all a favor and step into the 21st century will you? It isn’t a matter of politics (though I suppose it obviously is with you); you have the entirity of **mainstream science** and **basic human decency** to contend with nowadays. These _ad hominem_ attacks against liberals in defense of your racial paranoia (and the SMDB has long since convinced me that I am not a liberal) only serve to make conservatives look bad. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/195 "2003-12-30T22:05:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > **But you want to argue the _perception_? Well, who gives a fuck about the perception? Even if you were correct that “the average individual” held a mistaken belief… so what?** Well, I care, especially when the perception is formed by a campaign of brainwashing. That’s right, brainwashing whites into a sense of collective guilt. And why would “they” do that? Well, it is the Whites that are most concerned with the destruction of traditional American society and it’s sovereignty. Instilling a sense of collective guilt among them lessens their resistance to the imposition of socialism and globalism. > [@](#): > > **As for _how_ this allegedly “commonly held” misconception occured, well, a lot of people believe a lot of incorrect things. Your conspiracy theory angle is silly.** No, it is fact. White on Black crime is trumpeted, while Black on White crime is downplayed. It is an intentional ploy by the establishment media. A conspiracy to instill the sense of collective guilt. > [@](#): > > \*\*By the way, can you define “white”, already? \*\* Yeah, it’s the only group that the Supreme Court sanctions institutionalized discrimination against. They can recognize “white”. The University of Michigan board of admissions has no problem recognizing “white”. Why do you have a problem recognizing “white”? ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/196 "2003-12-30T22:18:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trinopus \* > \*\*How did the transfer of power in Rhodesia cause the four year drought that wiped out farms and ranches there? > > Trinopus \*\* “Nearly half of Zimbabwe’s 12 million people face starvation because of poor rains last season but largely because ZANU PF supporters disrupted agricultural production when they seized land from large-scale producing white farmers.” [http://www.africaonline.com/site/Articles/1,3,48446.jsp](http://www.africaonline.com/site/Articles/1,3,48446.jsp) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/197 "2003-12-30T22:33:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Why do you have a problem recognizing “white”? Because we’re curious to see where you draw the colot bar. At different times, East Indians have been whiate (and not white), Persians/Iranians have been white (and not white), Egyptians have been white (and not white), Arabs and Jews (even Jews from Poland and Russia) have been white (and not white), and Italians and Spaniards have been white (and some have been not white). Since this stuff is so _obvious_ and since you claim that it is based on objective reality, we are curious to know where you draw the line and why your line does or does not agree with all the _different_ other lines that have been drawn. ---
**Author:** ![Millen89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Millen89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millen89)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/198 "2003-12-30T23:32:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > \*\*And I would respond that I never said a single word about the situation in Tibet. I would also add that I would appreciate it if you read my posts before you responded ot them. I would also add that I would appreciate it if you would apologize for spewing such a hateful lie against me. But I’m not going to hold my breath and wait for you to do so. > > When the Chinese government kills Tibetan people, that’s bad for Tibetan people. When Hispanic immigrants move to the United States, that’s good for everyone in the United States. Thus, there’s no comparison between the two situations. > > So in other words, it does rely on that assumption. > > Your scenario is not a possibility, so that doesn’t matter. However, I am a supporter of free constitutional democracy. If your scenario came true, I would support free constitutional democracy. \*\* My mistake, my response was meant for **Bryan Ekers**. ---
**Author:** ![Millen89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Millen89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millen89)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/199 "2003-12-30T23:43:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ShoNuff \* > \*\ ***Millen88** , you’re right! My uncle’s family, living in Sourthern California, was killed by marauding Mexicans as they crossed the border! > > Oh wait, they weren’t. In fact, the Mexicans in Southern California are working hard, helping their families, and trying to make a better life for themselves. It’s not an invading army. It’s not ethnic cleansing. It’s America, the melting pot, where everyone has a chance at a better life. > > The Chinese government has been systematically dismantling Tibet for decades with troops, intimidation, forced deportations, and mass killings. The Mexicans coming into the United States have done nothing even remotely like this. They’re in the United States working jobs others don’t want at wages others don’t accept. This isn’t an invasion, it isn’t genocide. It’s the free market, and it’s a good thing. > > BTW - You should have a talk with your friend **Charles A Lindbergh** , he seems to think that China is 100% Chinese. \*\* **ShoNuff** , when did I refer to Mexicans in Southern California as an invading army? I agree with you that they are hard working and just want to make a better life for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/200 "2003-12-30T23:53:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > Well, I care, especially when the perception is formed by a campaign of brainwashing. That’s right, brainwashing whites into a sense of collective guilt. Have _you_ been brainwashed? If not, what protected you from brainwashing? “Brainwashing” is a such a ridiculously lazy, unsupportable and implicitly arrogant claim to make. It’s an attempt to reduce your opponents from people who might have a well-reasoned point of view to mere babbling products of manipulation. The main irony with applying it to this issue, though, is that so many of the factoids dragged out to support bigotry are themselves fallacious and only repeated endlessly to try to drown out dissent. _That_ strikes me as an attempt at brainwashing. In any case, I disagree with you mightily on this issue, so I’d have to ask; by your standards, am I liberal? Have I been brainwashed? I have to admit I don’t feel one tiny sliver of so-called “white guilt”, but at the same time, I don’t feel one tiny sliver of “white fear”. > [@](#): > > It is an intentional ploy by the establishment media. A conspiracy to instill the sense of collective guilt. Blaming the media is another lazy tactic. The “media”, establishment or otherwise, is not a monolithic block with a common agenda to do much of anything. Trying to jam together disparate people you view as threats into groups and attach a label to them is something you’re quite fond of, I see, be the label “media”, “liberal” or “multiculturalists”. By your statement, crimes perpetrated by blacks should be getting little or no coverage in the so-called “establishment media”. That’s a crock, of course, since it’s ridiculously easy to find a range of counter-examples from Willie Horton to John Malvo. The “establishment media” is _full_ of crime stories, since violence sells. I see no indication that any effort is being made to make crime look like a white-only problem. Heck, just watch any episode of _Cops_, a show so popular, it’s been copied numerous times. Many of the criminals shown aren’t white. > [@](#): > > The University of Michigan board of admissions has no problem recognizing “white”. Why do you have a problem recognizing “white”? What I have a bigger problem recognizing is why you think the actions of a University are indicative of a huge conspiracy. In fact, if there _were_ a huge conspiracy, why would any “establishment media” outlet even be _reporting_ on U of M policies? For that matter, why are African atrocities perpretrated by blacks being reported at all, since that would seem couterproductive to the establishment media’s conspiracy? As for why these atrocities are happening at all, it seems easy enough to point out that Africa has a bloody and savage history, with endless cycles of tribal warfare, civil war, massacres etc. What relevance this has to the modern United States escapes me, though. Regarding a working definition of “white”, I’d like to know what genetic/ethnic/national/whatever background qualifies a person as “white”, in your opinion, as well as what (if anything) can disqualify a person, and can you give examples of “white culture” that have been systematically undermined by immigration or media conspiracies? The word “genocide” has come up a few times in this thread. I’d just like to know who (if anyone) is being genocided (even metaphorically) and how. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809.md?page=11)