# Bush & Tom Ridge Want To Amnesty 12 Million Illegals - Isn't This Treason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809 "2003-12-24T07:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/201 "2003-12-31T22:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > **Have _you_ been brainwashed? If not, what protected you from brainwashing?** Basically being able to distinguish between fantacy and reality. People often wonder why liberals struggle in the arena of “talk radio”. The answer is really quite simple. Listening to the radio requires more intellectual exercise, than watching the “telescreen”. With talk radio, just the words are provided, requiring the listener to translate the words into thoughts that are compatable with the listener’s everyday life experiences. Whereas, watching television requires little in intellectual exercise. The watcher is given the words, while the images of the “telescreen” guide the watcher’s thoughts to the “correct” conclusions. Let’s examine one of liberalism’s pet causes, welfare. With television, the words speak of the “needy”, while images of those that truly are needy, reinforce the message . This does not work so well with radio. While the words may speak of the plight of the needy, it’s not enough to erase the mental images of our everyday life experiences of the “single mom” crowding the checkout aisle with a shopping-cart full of “essentials” and a brood of young’uns, each bearing the telltale characteristics of a different father, as she carefully counts out the correct amount of foodstamps. Without the images to guide our thoughts, we start to question why we tolerate this. > [@](#): > > **"Brainwashing" is a such a ridiculously lazy, unsupportable and implicitly arrogant claim to make. It’s an attempt to reduce your opponents from people who might have a well-reasoned point of view to mere babbling products of manipulation.** “Brainwashing” is quite accurate and very supportable. Let’s go back to the crime stats. The gross numbers indicate that minorities are responsible for 34% of all hate crimes.(understated, as Hispanics are lumped in with Whites.) But, according to Hollywood, Whites are responsible for 99.999% of all hate crimes. Another trick that Hollywood plays, is to reverse the roles. My favorite example is in the move, Shawshank Redemption, starring that liberal darling, Tim Robbins and Morgan Freeman. In the movie, Tim Robbin’s character is a victim of a prison gang-rape. Of course, it was a gang that was all White. But remember, that was a “Through the Looking Glass” worldview. Reality reveals that the majority of prison rape is perpetrated by blacks. Think it’s just happenstance that such things are portrayed that way? > [@](#): > > **Blaming the media is another lazy tactic. The “media”, establishment or otherwise, is not a monolithic block with a common agenda to do much of anything.** Then, what explains that on each network’s “evening news”, they all cover the same “news”. The only difference is in their “public interest” stories. > [@](#): > > **By your statement, crimes perpetrated by blacks should be getting little or no coverage in the so-called “establishment media”. That’s a crock,** No, it’s not a “crock”, it’s fact. Of course, minority crimes are reported, they have to report some in an effort of CYA. But all you have to do is compare the degree of coverage, and a disparity cannot, with a straight-face, be denied. Take, for instance, the dragging death of James Byrd, in Jasper, Texas and the quadruple rape/murder murder spree by Reginald and Johnathan Carr, in Witchata, Kansas. Both equally atrocious hate crimes. The James Byrd murder garnered 24/7 coverage for months, and is still occasionally mentioned, just to ensure that everyone’s mind stays on the programed track. While the Carr brothers hate crime only received token mention. > [@](#): > > **…of course, since it’s ridiculously easy to find a range of counter-examples from Willie Horton to John Malvo. The “establishment media” is _full_ of crime stories, since violence sells. I see no indication that any effort is being made to make crime look like a white-only problem. Heck, just watch any episode of _Cops_, a show so popular, it’s been copied numerous times. Many of the criminals shown aren’t white.** That’s because _Cops_ is a reality show. Duhhh… Anyways, I’m glad you brought up John Malvo. It lends me another example to illustrate the danger that the liberal orthodoxy poses to all of us. What’s the only group that is deemed acceptable to “racially profile”? If you guessed white, step to the head of the class. Remember, during the “D.C. sniping”, the “authorities” brought in an “expert” to build a profile of who might be doing the shooting? And what did they come up with? Hollywood couldn’t have done any better. It was a white redneck in a pickup truck. And because of this profiling, Muhammed and Malvo went to and fro without scrutiny to continue killing. Thank you, liberalism. > [@](#): > > **Regarding a working definition of “white”, I’d like to know what genetic/ethnic/national/whatever background qualifies a person as "white"** Yeah, me too. In every instance of white/black parentage that I can think of, the offsprings always claim that they are black. Why is that? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > **The point that you missed was that not all Hispanic-Americans, (and all other minority groups in America) are automatically liberals, see how the majority of them did not vote for Bustamante in the last California election.** The point that you deliberately, and with malice, distort is that I never said that ALL Hispanic-Americans were liberal. If you recall, I stated that, prior to 1965, the majority of Spanish speaking Americans in SoCal were conservative. It was only after the change in immigration policy, did the political demographics start to change. > [@](#): > > **Apples and oranges, on top of that: a lie: > [http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hatecm.htm](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hatecm.htm) > Table 4. - Number of Known Offenders by Race, 1995 Suspected Offender’s Race Number of Known Offenders > Total: 8,433 > White: 4,991 > Black: 2,253 > American Indian/Alaskan Native: 45 > Asian/Pacific Islander: 211 > Multi-Racial Group: 318 > Unknown :615** See what I mean about “smearing and name-calling” being the forte of liberals. This is the “lie” that **GIGObuster** is referring to. > [@](#): > > FBI crime statistics reveal that minorities are several times more likely to commit a “hate-crime” against a White, than the commonly held misperception of minorities being the victims of “hate” perpetrated by Whites. Let’s have some fun with this “baby seal” and examine the numbers. According to the 2000 census, there were 211 million whites and 34 million blacks in the U.S. Of those 211 million whites, there were 4,991 hate crimes committed. This translates into one hate crime committed for every 42,276 whites. Of the 34 million blacks in the U.S., there were 2,253 hate crimes committed. This translates into one hate crime committed for every 15,090 blacks. These numbers reveal that blacks are 2.81 times more likely to be the perpetrators of a hate crime than whites. But the numbers for whites are overstated in that “Hispanics” are counted as white. Funny thing about that. Ask the average “Hispanic” if he or she considers themselves white, and they will look at you indignantly and say, “Hell no, I ain’t white!!” > [@](#): > > **It goes both ways: hate crimes against whites are also investigated and recorded; it is only in your biased mind that this is a liberal smear.** No, it becomes a liberal smear when the media intentionally trumpets examples of hate crimes perpetrated by whites and downplays examples of hate crimes perpetrated by minorities. This is why, when hate crimes are mentioned, people automatically think of whites persecuting minorities. It is the diliberate manipulation of public opinion that has the effect of brainwashing the public. > [@](#): > > **Conspiracy? As the data shows, it is only in your mind. But, I guess it would be a smear to mention that a close relative was pounded to death recently by skinheads and robbery was not the reason.** No, the data is on my side. I am sorry for your relative and, FYI, I am equally repulsed by White-trash skinheads. Happy New Year!!! Wheeeee!! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/202 "2003-12-31T22:58:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Take, for instance, the dragging death of James Byrd, in Jasper, Texas and the quadruple rape/murder murder spree by Reginald and Johnathan Carr, in Witchata, Kansas. Both equally atrocious hate crimes. Dishonest spin on your part. The murder of James Byrd was a hate crime. He was selected for murder solely because he was black. The Carr brothers committed a despicable crime, but it was simply the latest in a long career of crimes–against both blacks and whites–and the initial motive was robbery, not the infliction of pain or death on whites. > [@](#): > > I’m glad you brought up John Malvo. It lends me another example to illustrate the danger that the liberal orthodoxy poses to all of us. > > What’s the only group that is deemed acceptable to “racially profile”? If you guessed white, step to the head of the class. Remember, during the “D.C. sniping”, the “authorities” brought in an “expert” to build a profile of who might be doing the shooting? And what did they come up with? Hollywood couldn’t have done any better. It was a white redneck in a pickup truck. And because of this profiling, Muhammed and Malvo went to and fro without scrutiny to continue killing. Thank you, liberalism. You are lying again. There was nothing in the published profile that indicated “redneck” or “pickup truck.” [The description was “most likely a white male in his thirties, may have recently been fired from or resigned from his job under contentious circumstances.”](http://www.csbsju.edu/uspp/Research/Sniper.html) On the other hand, since profiling is generally supported by people who enjoy applying it to non-whites, it was simple irony that it turned out that these two were black: the overwhelming numbers of serial killers in the U.S. (the basis for profiling) have been, in fact, white males. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/203 "2003-12-31T23:13:32Z")
_Another trick that Hollywood plays, is to reverse the roles. My favorite example is in the move, Shawshank Redemption, starring that liberal darling, Tim Robbins and Morgan Freeman. In the movie, Tim Robbin’s character is a victim of a prison gang-rape. Of course, it was a gang that was all White. But remember, that was a “Through the Looking Glass” worldview. Reality reveals that the majority of prison rape is perpetrated by blacks. Think it’s just happenstance that such things are portrayed that way?_ In order to sustain your claim, you’d have to demonstrate that white men never commit homosexual rape. Since this is clearly not the case, your claim fails on its merits. Most serial killers and child sex offenders are white men. White men commit these crimes at rates higher than their proportion of the US population. Black serial killers and child sex offenders do exist, it’s just that they make up a smaller share of the black population. Making a film about a black child molester or a black serial killer would not in and of itself be a distortion of reality. It would simply be a choice of the filmmakers. That, incidentally, is the way that fictional narratives work. The creators make choices. The primary standard of proof is whether the audience can believe the events depicted. Is it hard for anyone to believe that convicted murderers, robbers, and rapists would also rape another convict? I do not, by the way, accept your claim that blacks commit most prison rape. The environment, prison, and the members of that environment, convicted criminals, as well as the stigma attached to being either a perpetrator or a victim of the crime, make reliable data difficult if not impossible to get. _Reality reveals…_ A statement that is free of both content and logic. Go back to Freshman Composition. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/204 "2003-12-31T23:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*No, it becomes a liberal smear when the media intentionally trumpets examples of hate crimes perpetrated by whites and downplays examples of hate crimes perpetrated by minorities. This is why, when hate crimes are mentioned, people automatically think of whites persecuting minorities. It is the diliberate manipulation of public opinion that has the effect of brainwashing the public. > > No, the data is on my side. I am sorry for your relative and, FYI, I am equally repulsed by White-trash skinheads. > > Happy New Year!!! Wheeeee!! \*\* You will have to tell me were you got that quote “on the minorities being more likely to commit a “hate crime”” because it is not in the FBI report, I detect an effort to mislead others into assuming that quote came from the report. However, this one came from it: > [@](#): > > Law enforcement agencies reported the number of known offenders for 62 percent of hate crimes coming to their attention in 1995. Among the 8,433 known offenders reported to be associated with hate crime incidents, 59 percent were white, and 27 percent were black. The remaining offenders were of other or multi-racial groups. Even assuming minorities are “more likely” the fact remains: minorities have the most to fear. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/205 "2003-12-31T23:39:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > Of course, minority crimes are reported, they have to report some in an effort of CYA. Sooooo. when the media behave one way, they’re engaged in a conspiracy, and when they act in the opposite way, it’s just a trick? I belive I’ll put this in the “heads I win, tails don’t count” fallacy file. > [@](#): > > That’s because _Cops_ is a reality show. Duhhh… _Cops_ is not a _live_ reality show, so Duhhh backatcha. The people producing _Cops_ have ample opportunity to edit their footage and the people televising it have ample opportunity to reject it before showtime. Were there a conspiracy in place, no footage showing black criminals would get to air. So, regarding this conspiracy, does it only apply to fictional (i.e. non-reality) works? If so, how does it affect nightly news broadcasts showing lots of footage of minoroity criminals? Are they being double-extra-tricky about it? Such is the problem with conspiracy theories, of course. They keep expanding to absorb contrary evidence. Even if Hollywood has a leftist white-guilt slant to it, how is this the fault of Mexican immigrants, if I may make an attempt to pull the thread back to the original subject? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/206 "2003-12-31T23:48:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course, it was a gang that was all White. But remember, that was a “Through the Looking Glass” worldview. Reality reveals that the majority of prison rape is perpetrated by blacks. No. Even if you choose to ignore **GIGObuster** ’s point, you need to recognize that the movie was set in 1950s Maine. Reality reveals that there were so few blacks living in Maine at that time, that it would have been difficult for a “gang” of blacks to have actually assembled in a Maine prison. (Even in 2000, blacks made up less than 1/2 per cent of Maine’s population.) You might want to quit using easily debunked claims to make your spurious points. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/207 "2003-12-31T23:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > ignore GIGObuster’s point Sorry, that should have read “ignore **Belowjob2.0** ’s point.” ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/208 "2004-01-01T12:07:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Belowjob2.0 \* > **In order to sustain your claim, you’d have to demonstrate that white men never commit homosexual rape. Since this is clearly not the case, your claim fails on its merits.** So, to claim that a majority of prison rape is perpetrated by blacks, I have to demonstrate that white men NEVER commit homosexual rape? Talk about a statement that is free of logic, you win. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/209 "2004-01-01T12:48:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **Dishonest spin on your part. The murder of James Byrd was a hate crime. He was selected for murder solely because he was black. The Carr brothers committed a despicable crime, but it was simply the latest in a long career of crimes–against both blacks and whites–and the initial motive was robbery, not the infliction of pain or death on whites.** Talk about dishonesty and spin. The initial motive?? To Hell with the “initial motive”, look at the reality of what happened. Oh, that’s right, reality is not compatible with the “Through the Looking Glass” worldview. > [@](#): > > **You are lying again.** Was I lying when I said this: > [@](#): > > What’s the only group that is deemed acceptable to “racially profile”? If you guessed white, step to the head of the class. So, explain this, if “profiling” on the basis of race is forbidden to be applied to minorities, why is it acceptable for whites? > [@](#): > > \*\*On the other hand, since profiling is generally supported by people who enjoy applying it to non-whites, it was simple irony that it turned out that these two were black: the overwhelming numbers of serial killers in the U.S. (the basis for profiling) have been, in fact, white males. \*\* This absurdity could actually be beneficial to you. You can gaze into your own belly-button for some introspection to just how deluded you really are. If profiling is supported by people who “enjoy” applying it to non-whites, then it is NOT ironic that the snipers turned out to be black, it justifies their position. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/210 "2004-01-01T13:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > **You will have to tell me were you got that quote “on the minorities being more likely to commit a “hate crime”” because it is not in the FBI report, I detect an effort to mislead others into assuming that quote came from the report.** It’s my quote. I was repeating what I earlier said to clairfy what you were claiming to be a lie. And I even did the math for you. So much for your ability to “detect”. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/211 "2004-01-01T13:41:24Z")
> [@](#): > > **Razorsharp** : However, I have to admit, these little tete-a-tetes with the liberal ilk are entertaining. I liken them to clubbing baby seals. It’s fun, but it’s so easy, that after awhile, it gets boring. I think there is a name for “clubbing baby seals for entertainment” at SDMB. But what puzzles me is why you keep doing it when it bores you. Where _did_ you get that user name?! And whatever happened to the topic of this thread – amnesty for illegal aliens? Are the President and Tom Ridge part of “the liberal ilk”? What are you doing to change the laws and or legal processes that currently allow changes that you don’t like? (I’ve never been one to say _America – love it or leave it_, nor do I think that tete-a-tetes with those of “the liberal ilk” accomplish anything except temporary joy, joy, joy, joy deep in your heart. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/212 "2004-01-01T15:32:22Z")
> [@](#): > > If profiling is supported by people who “enjoy” applying it to non-whites, then it is NOT ironic that the snipers turned out to be black, it justifies their position. No. Profiling is supposed to be based on an accumulated history of crimes, so people who support it claim that it is OK to stop any black man following any violent crime, because (currently, due to other sociological factors) black men have a high percentage of involvement in violent crime. Then, when a type of crime is committed that has a better than 99% rate of commission by white men, (indicating that profilers should look at white men, first), you want to change the rules and whine that it was “liberal” policies that made the police look for a perpetrator of the wrong group. (And your specific lie, that I noted, was adding in the “redneck” and “pickup” comments that were not part of the profile.) > [@](#): > > To Hell with the “initial motive”, look at the reality of what happened. I realize that dealing with concepts is tough for you, but _motive_ is what distinguishes a hate crime. There are many hate crimes committed by blacks, but the Carr brothers’ actions do not fit in that category. Their actions were cruel, horrific, and vile, but they do not meet the definition of a hate crime. * * * Additionally, I see you are still avoiding a definition of who may be deemed white. Irish? Italians? Jews? Arabs? Persians? Indians? Who gets to be in this club that is so “obvious” that neither laymen nor scientists can draw the same lines around it, twice? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/213 "2004-01-01T16:30:30Z")
_So, to claim that a majority of prison rape is perpetrated by blacks, I have to demonstrate that white men NEVER commit homosexual rape? Talk about a statement that is free of logic, you win._ Uh, no, Sharpie. Your claim was that Hollywood films like Shawshank disort reality to advance a political agenda. Again, Freshman Composition will help you understand the difference between primary claims and supporting claims. You’ll also learn how to argue logically, as opposed to the demagogic, talk-radio style of argument you use here. Right wing talk radio hosts draw their rhetorical style from advertising, not the tradition of well reasoned, logical debate. This rhetorical style prefers buzzwords, sloganeering, repetition of simplistic ideas, and demonization of the opposition, to real debate. Advertising is better at capturing the public’s attention because that is what advertising is designed to do. What advertising style political rhetoric does not do is illuminate the issues or advance the debate. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/214 "2004-01-01T16:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*It’s my quote. I was repeating what I earlier said to clairfy what you were claiming to be a lie. And I even did the math for you. > > So much for your ability to “detect”. \*\* Thanks for acknowledging that that quote did not came from the report anyhow, and speaking of lies, damn lies, and statistics, I can say that your logic is the same as saying the Buffalo bills were the most likely team to win the super bowl in the 90’s. That statistic does not tell what really happens in the field. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/215 "2004-01-03T17:19:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Belowjob2.0 \* > \*\*I do not, by the way, accept your claim that blacks commit most prison rape. The environment, prison, and the members of that environment, convicted criminals, as well as the stigma attached to being either a perpetrator or a victim of the crime, make reliable data difficult if not impossible to get. > > Go back to Freshman Composition. \*\* > [@](#): > > Past studies have documented the prevalence of black on white sexual aggression in prison. These findings are further confirmed by Human Rights Watch’s own research. Overall, our correspondence and interviews with white, black, and Hispanic inmates convince us that white inmates are disproportionately targeted for abuse. Although many whites reported being raped by white inmates, black on white abuse appears to be more common. To a much lesser extent, non-Hispanic whites also reported being victimized by Hispanic inmates. [http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report4.html#\_1\_27](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report4.html#_1_27) As for your little snide remarks with regards to “freshman composition”, I am confident enough with my level of composition, that critique from someone who makes statements that are tantamount to the most obvious incorrect answer to a question from an IQ test, > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Belowjob2.0_ > > In order to sustain your claim, you’d have to demonstrate that white men **never** commit homosexual rape. Since this is clearly not the case, your claim fails on its merits. is hardly enough to dampen my self-esteem. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/216 "2004-01-03T18:22:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **No. Profiling is supposed to be based on an accumulated history of crimes, so people who support it claim that it is OK to stop any black man following any violent crime, because (currently, due to other sociological factors) black men have a high percentage of involvement in violent crime. Then, when a type of crime is committed that has a better than 99% rate of commission by white men, (indicating that profilers should look at white men, first), you want to change the rules and whine that it was “liberal” policies that made the police look for a perpetrator of the wrong group.** No, you are wrong again. There is not supposed to be any profiling. See, according to the liberal ideology it’s wrong to profile according to race, well, any race other than the white race. Profiling for whites is acceptable. Hey, there is some irony there afterall, but not in the analogy that you were able to come up with. > [@](#): > > originally posted by tomndebb\*\* > On the other hand, since profiling is generally supported by people who enjoy applying it to non-whites, it was simple irony that it turned out that these two were black: the overwhelming numbers of serial killers in the U.S. (the basis for profiling) have been, in fact, white males.\*\* Here, allow me to correct you. It would have been ironic if the killers turned out to be two of those who “enjoy” profiling non-whites. There, I have educated you. No need to thank me. > [@](#): > > **(And your specific lie, that I noted, was adding in the “redneck” and “pickup” comments that were not part of the profile.)** There were a sundry of caricatures bandied about. A pick-up truck was mentioned, as well as a white van and a white cargo truck. The sniper(s) were thought to have been trained marksmen, (Although the distance of the shootings didn’t require proficiency.) or even the dreaded “militia type(s)”. The only thing in common with all profiles, was that the shooter(s) was white. > [@](#): > > **I realize that dealing with concepts is tough for you, but _motive_ is what distinguishes a hate crime. There are many hate crimes committed by blacks, but the Carr brothers’ actions do not fit in that category. Their actions were cruel, horrific, and vile, but they do not meet the definition of a hate crime.** Yeah, and I realize that dealing with reality is tough for those who reside behind the Looking-Glass. Yes, robbery may have been the initial motive, but once the “robbery” had ended, different crimes ensued. Only in a mind clouded with the liberal orthodoxy can it be reconciled that “robbery” is the motive for the malicious torture of the victims of a “robbery”. > [@](#): > > **Aditionally, I see you are still avoiding a definition of who may be deemed white.** You must have missed it. Here goes again. Whites are the only group that the Supreme Court has sanctioned institutionalized discrimination against. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/217 "2004-01-03T20:48:06Z")
> [@](#): > > See, according to the liberal ideology it’s wrong to profile according to race, well, any race other than the white race. Profiling for whites is acceptable. Hey, there is some irony there afterall, but not in the analogy that you were able to come up with. Entirely false. Profiling is acceptable based on the history of the _actions_ of anyone. Racial profiling is a lazy way to simply stop black males, pulling them over for “driving while black” when there is not even a crime of which they may be accused. If you take the time to read the _entire_ profile, you will find that John Allen Muhammad fits most of the profile criteria–including his being quick to anger, his recent problems with employment, etc. As it happens, the overwhelming majority of serial killers in the U.S. have been white males, so looking for white males fits the overall profile. (And you are demonstrating your dishonesty, again, regarding the “pickup.” There were, as you noted, several vehicles erroneously identified as having been in the area at the times of various shootings. However, you lied when you said that the “pickup” (and the “redneck” claim) were part of the profile. They were all simply dead-end tips that were turned in by various witnesses and the “pickup” did not feature in the profile.) > [@](#): > > You must have missed it. Here goes again. Whites are the only group that the Supreme Court has sanctioned institutionalized discrimination against. So you really don’t even know who is white? The Supreme Court has never really _defined_ what “white” means, so your claim is bogus. (Not to mention the whole string of Supreme Court decisions stretching all the way back to _Bakke_ in which the Court ruled that one could _not_ discriminate against a person because he was white. You are simply making up false claims against the evidence while hiding from the fact that you cannot even identify this mythical “white” person by any objective criteria.) As to the Carr brothers: they are barbaric slime, but your claim that torture is somehow not associated with robbery is put to the lie by the following stories (among many others) and you have done nothing to prove the “hate crime” except note that the perpetrators and victims were different. Scumbags (of all sorts of ethnic origins) indulge themselves with torturing their victims. You simply choose to believe “hate crime” because it makes you feel good to pretend that you are some sort of a victim. [http://www.pressdemocrat.com/local/news/31windsor\_a1.html](http://www.pressdemocrat.com/local/news/31windsor_a1.html) [http://da.co.la.ca.us/mr/041603b.htm](http://da.co.la.ca.us/mr/041603b.htm) [http://ny.yahoo.com/external/wcbs\_radio/stories/8658658831.html](http://ny.yahoo.com/external/wcbs_radio/stories/8658658831.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/218 "2004-01-03T23:11:11Z")
Boy, Razor, you just _love_ them stereotypes, don’t you? You’ve described some kind of stereotypical “liberals” who seem to be divorced (or at legally seperated) from reality, and then you’re repeatedly accusing us of being members of their sewing circle. Well, you’re wrong. You’re completely wrong. You couldn’t be more wrong if your butt was on backwards. Your tactics, though, are fairly easy to understand as an attempt to force people who disagree with you to go on the defensive. I even did the same, by repeatedly asking you to define “white”, knowing there was no answer you could give that couldn’t be challenged. The difference is that my tactics are supported by your statements, while your tactics are supported by nothing. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/219 "2004-01-04T08:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*You must have missed it. Here goes again. Whites are the only group that the Supreme Court has sanctioned institutionalized discrimination against. \*\* Maybe if we break it down nice and simple you can actually answer the question in specific terms: Which of the following nationalities or ethnicities may be included under the heading “white”? Anglo-Saxon Nordic Germanic Gaelic Spanish Portuguese Italian Sicilian Greek Serbian Kurdish Polish Jewish Ukranian Albanian Czech Slovak Romanian Romani Bulgarian Croatian Lithuanian Feel free to add or subtract any you feel are pertinent. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/220 "2004-01-04T13:34:37Z")
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