# Bush & Tom Ridge Want To Amnesty 12 Million Illegals - Isn't This Treason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809 "2003-12-24T07:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/41 "2003-12-24T14:12:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > I have to enter this sentence in the running for the stupidest statement that I have read on this thread. > \*\* Race is a social concept, not a biological concept. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > I’ll have to tell all my geneticist friends that they’ve been wasting their time for the last thirty years carefully documenting the genotype differences between the human races or sub-species. > \*\* Please have a discussion with your genetiscist friends. Apparently, you’ve misunderstood what they’ve said to you in the past. Ideally, you would invite you geneticist friends to participate in this forum. The more the merrier. It would be nice to observe your conversation with them here. Let us know when you’ve invited them, and what they say about coming. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > I’ll have to tell the geneticists at [http://www.AncestryByDNA.com](http://www.AncestryByDNA.com) that race-specific DNA markers don’t exist and that they better stop selling their genetic test that identifies race with one cheek swab’s DNA. > \*\* Genetic markers do not identify race. Genetic markers can help identify one ancestors. The determination of what race these ancestors are/were is a social one. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > We better tell all the animal breeders that all animals are the same, that races don’t exist. We better tell the animal breeders that draft horses and Arabians are really the same. How stupid of them to think that they could tell the difference. And how especially stupid of the farmer and ranch-hand to think that they can tell the difference every time and without fail among ten different races of horses, including the temperaments, intelligence, strengths and weaknesses of each. > \*\* This analogy is fundamentally flawed as there’re no examples of this sort of generation after generation of controlled, captive breeding of humans. The truth is that humans have been breeding with pretty much whomever they please since time immemorial. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > We’ll have to let the geneticists in on the secret that Australian aborigines are pretty darn indistinguishable from the race that produced Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon, Johann von Goethe, Ludwig von Beethoven, Leonardo da Vinci, William Shakespeare, and Friedrich Gauss…and thousands more like them! > \*\* If you’ll ask your geneticist friends, they explain to you that race is not a biological concept. In case you didn’t notice, da Vinci isn’t “White.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > Why preserve the race that produced all of these minds? We’re all the same. Who needs divergent evolution? If only we had had our TV masters 100,000 years ago we could have avoided this whole mess by cancelling that racist divergent evolution thing. We wouldn’t have had any of those great minds, or their science, or art, or music, or any of their other sublimely beautiful forms and creations…but what the heck…who needs that stuff anyway. \*\* Since the concept of race is not a biologically valid one, this sarcastic tantrum is moot. This also underlines some issues you have in grasping the concepts involved in evolution. Please consult with your geneticsit friends. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/42 "2003-12-24T14:20:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > We’ll have to let the geneticists in on the secret that Australian aborigines are pretty darn indistinguishable from the race that produced Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon, Johann von Goethe, Ludwig von Beethoven, Leonardo da Vinci, William Shakespeare, and Friedrich Gauss…and thousands more like them!_\* Funny you should provide this example. Papua New Guineans have on average higher IQs. You should read [this](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393317552/) book. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/43 "2003-12-24T14:39:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > Your freedom to do what SimonX? > \*\* Most basically to control the government governing me. There’re a number of rights to this effect listed in the US Constitution if you’re curious. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > Your freedom to say and think only what your TV has told you its OK to say and think? I’m seeing a lot of that freedom here. I haven’t encountered one person who isn’t politically correct yet on this thread. It takes a lot of guts and integrity to obey your TV. > \*\* FYI, this is another incorrect assumption on your part. I grew up w/o a TV and I still don’t have a TV. Consider the saying about what happens when you assume. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > Think about your grandchildren SimonX. Stop thinking about yourself. The freedom that counts is that of your great-grandchildren. The freedom that counts is their freedom to play in their neighborhood safely at any hour of the day…as I was when I as a child. The freedom that counts is their freedom to have no worry whatsoever about brutal violence in their own school! When I was a child in a 100% White American town no one even CONCEIVED of the idea of violence or danger at school. ALL of the kids walked to school…even at very young ages. NO ONE though twice about that. That’s freedom, pal. > \*\* Actually, that’s security not liberty. This is something that’s offered by dictators. As a matter of fact, it’s one of the few things taht Iraqis have missed of Hussein’s regime. There’s an old chestnut about those who’d exchange liberty for security. It says that those who’d do so deserve neither. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > Freedom is knowing that an honest day’s work at any trade, high or low, will always support a family. > \*\* This is also security. Are you sure that you’re an American. You seem to have a poor grasp on the concepts of Liberty on which this country was founded. Dictatorships have offered this too you know. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > You know what the scariest thing about this thread has been so far? There hasn’t been one person on this site who has the guts to say anything good about the survival of the White race. Either there aren’t any White people on this site, or there are some very odd ones who are real gutless wonders. > \*\* The context of this thread has not lent itself to such things. Most people are proud of who they are. I know I am. I don’t however try to take credit for the works of others just because we share the same skin tones or ancestry. Seems like a very shallow source of pride. I think that my own abilities and accomplishments are ample things to be prideful of. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\* > Hello out there!! Is there even one White person on this site who’s proud to be White? And takes any interest in preserving the race? > \*\* Are you harboring a notion that “White” people are in some sort opf danger of dissappearing from the face of the Earth? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/44 "2003-12-24T14:48:16Z")
From [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64852&highlight=race+genotype): [**More links to race diccussions on the SDMB than you can shake a stick at**](http://www.eneubauer.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/45 "2003-12-24T14:59:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > \*\*It’s all gone a little ‘Stormfront’ in here. \*\* Dead on target. Check out **Charles A Lindbergh’s** [user profile](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=41371), particularly his homepage. Mods, where are you? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/46 "2003-12-24T15:04:14Z")
Has he broken a rule yet? ---
**Author:** ![Kantalooppi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a5b964/32.png) [@Kantalooppi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kantalooppi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/47 "2003-12-24T15:08:51Z")
I wonder why, exactly, does Charles A. Lindbergh want the U.S, specifically, to be his special white wonderland. I mean, there’s been a fair share of interracial intercourse going on throughout the years, and on top of that all the European ethnicities have gone through a merry blender. Compared to folks here in Europeland, where the influx of non-white races has generally begun rather recently and the races haven’t really started mixing yet, Americans are mutt people (and there certainly is nothing wrong with it.) Instead of everybody and their brother moving out of the Lindyland, U.S.A, why doesn’t Lindy move to, say, Trondheim? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/48 "2003-12-24T15:13:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Has he broken a rule yet? \*\* Well, we’ll let the mods be the judge of that. However, GD isn’t exactly the place for lines like: [ul] [li]“You’re big on talk. After you finish washing out your talking mouth with soap strong enough to handle your inability to communicate with anything other than ghetto lingo, you might consider the possibility that our open borders President is also big on talk, just like you!”[/li][li]“How stupid are you?”[/li][li]"…your thinking is just as pathetic as the fellow ahead of you."[/li][/ul] Last, but not least, is the prohibition against hate speech. Tough to define, but I sort of know it when I see it, like pornography. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/49 "2003-12-24T15:17:51Z")
Classic trolling. He takes a shot at George Bush to piss off conservatives and acts blatantly racist to piss off liberals, and the whole basis of the thread has little basis in reality. I have a hard time believing the sincerity of the OP. If the poster actually believes all this stuff and truly is a white supremacist (see his profile), he still isn’t bringing anything to the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/50 "2003-12-24T15:19:00Z")
Congratulations, **Charles**. When I first started skimming thorugh this thread, with the exception of your inflammatory malarky in the OP, I was opposed to an amnesty. My mother is an immigrant who had to wait her turn to get into the US, and I had thought that it was only fair to do the maximum to keep the system on the level and not reward those who would seek to subvert it. I have now spun 180 degrees. I am in favor of a significant – but not total – amnesty. For one main reason: I’d rather hear more about immigrants working hard and trying to make a life for their family than hear more racist blather about white society and other nonsense. That probably makes me a traitor, too, eh? Fine. Call the US Attorney’s office. If you get charges filed in Southern California, I’ll pay my own way out there to face them. And since SoCal is being “taken over” by Mexicans – who will probably be eligible for citizenship if I get my way – there won’t be a jury in your town that would convict me of treason. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/51 "2003-12-24T15:20:33Z")
Some of the most virulent rhetoric agin neocons I’ve seen comes from conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![lout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@lout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lout)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/52 "2003-12-24T15:22:33Z")
“Instead of everybody and their brother moving out of the Lindyland, U.S.A, why doesn’t Lindy move to, say, Trondheim?” Personally, I find the idea of an all white homogenous America repugnant. I think it’s clear that most Americans don’t want to live in Lindyland. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/53 "2003-12-24T15:25:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Some of the most virulent rhetoric agin neocons I’ve seen comes from conservatives. \*\* True, though it shouldn’t come as a surprise. Liberals start with the assumption that the neocons are going to do things that they disagree with, so they don’t get too upset when that proves to be a correct assumption. Far right-wingers, on the other hand, start out thinking that the neocons will support their agenda. When that doesn’t happen, they feel betrayed. Spurned lovers can be pretty vicious. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/54 "2003-12-24T15:29:15Z")
:rolleyes: I could add some reasoned comment to this debate. But what’s the point? It’d be shooting fish in a barrel. There’s rarely any point or reward in apply reason or discussing facts with racists. They’re not interested in either. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/55 "2003-12-24T15:56:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Early Out \* > \*\*True, though it shouldn’t come as a surprise. Liberals start with the assumption that the neocons are going to do things that they disagree with, so they don’t get too upset when that proves to be a correct assumption. Far right-wingers, on the other hand, start out thinking that the neocons will support their agenda. When that doesn’t happen, they feel betrayed. Spurned lovers can be pretty vicious. \*\* Plus - and this applies to Charlie’s ilk - lots of neocons are actuallyJews. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/56 "2003-12-24T15:57:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Early Out \* > \*\*Dead on target. Check out **Charles A Lindbergh’s** [user profile](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=41371), particularly his homepage. > > Mods, where are you? \*\* He apparently sanitized his profile by removing any homepage, it must have been pretty bad if he is that ashamed of it. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/57 "2003-12-24T16:00:28Z")
It was a link to a ‘Stormfront’ thread. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/58 "2003-12-24T16:06:32Z")
I’m glad I haven’t wasted any energy responding to this B.S., and not too terribly much digesting it, seeing as it was pre-digested and all… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/59 "2003-12-24T16:12:50Z")
I had a feeling that **Lindy** was one of “those” from the time I read the OP. Now I’m sorry I wasted my time bothering to respond to him. Did you notice that in his profile under interests he lists “evolution of the white race?” Psst…Lindy…there is no such thing as the “white race” (or any other “race.”) ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/60 "2003-12-24T16:15:19Z")
In his case, evolution is more of a personal aspiration than an interest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809.md?page=4)