# Bush & Tom Ridge Want To Amnesty 12 Million Illegals - Isn't This Treason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809 "2003-12-24T07:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/81 "2003-12-25T06:06:23Z")
Hey Lindy, this ought to make you spit up your Cornflakes. I am a 100% Caucasian with Swedish and England ancestors, and guess what? I am currently dating a 100% Latina immigrant from Honduras! I hope to marry her one day and have several beautiful mixed-race babies. Doesn’t that just drive you crazy? I sure hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/82 "2003-12-25T06:50:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Paradoxical \* > \*\*hows it going capn? are you and oddity regulars? \*\* I’m doing well, thanks. I’m sorry, though, I don’t understand. Regular whats? ---
**Author:** ![agiantdwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8c91f0/32.png) [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/83 "2003-12-25T07:29:19Z")
In case this hasn’t come up already, the OP posts on the terrible forum Stormfront (which apparently invaded SDMB a while ago). Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/84 "2003-12-25T07:29:22Z")
I doubt that anything that has been said so far in this tread will change the mind and views of Charles Lindbergh, but I intend to be the first to manage this feat. **Charles Lindbergh** , you are at fault. It’s Johann **Wolfgang** Goethe, not von, and it is Ludwig **van** Beethoven, not “von” there either. You can kick and scream all you want, neither Ludwig or Johann have a “von” in their name. Oh and just for the record, I’m Swedish and most likely at least 40 times as “white” as you (blonde, blue eyes…) and I’d rather be sodomised by Mike Tyson than have you come here. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/85 "2003-12-25T16:13:33Z")
Well, isn’t this just the silliest OP we’ve had in a while. I particularly like this gem from more recent posts: > [@](#): > > The White folks who wish to have a White land…just as the Chinese have a 100% Chinese land, the Nigerians have a 100% Nigerian land, the Filipinos have a 100% Filipino land, the Indians have a 100% Indian land, the Iranians have a 100% Iranian land, the Haitians have a 100% Haitian land, and the Mexicans have a 95% mestizo & Indian land. . . . Substituting “white” for “American” is just silly. You start out with “white folks” and then try to compare that to nation states. There is no whitelandia, so the analogy is absurd. The U.S. (stolen from the “red” man and built on the backs of the “black” man and the “yellow” man with substantial help from a lot “white” men who were sneered at and discriminated against for being the _wrong type_ of “white”), has never been the “white only” nation that some fearful people like to pretend it had been. _And I concur with **Guinistasia** that I’d be really curious to see the definition of “white” person. I strongly suspect that it has no scientific, or even rational, basis._ China 100% Chinese? Well, by definition, just as the U.S. is 100% American. Otherwise, we note that there are at least eleven distinct ethnic groups in China (and the dominant Han, of course, are a mixture of many of the other groups who have conquered or been conquered by that group). Iran 100% Iranian? Well, by definition, just as the U.S. is 100% American. Otherwise, we find that just over half (51%) of the Iranians are (more or less) “pure” Persian, with the rest divided among Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%. Now, I do note that all the groups listed meet the standard definition of “white,” so perhaps **Charles A Lindbergh** would be more comfortable living in Iran? And, of course, to make the silliness complete, we have this claim by **Razorsharp** (who carefully cuts and pastes only the parts of history that warms the cockles of his fearful heart): > [@](#): > > Of course foreigners founded this country. Foreigners from such countries as England, Scotland, Ireland, France, Germany, Poland, Spain, Italy, etc. Seems to me that a lot of foreigners from China have been omitted from this list, along with all the “foreigners” who were forcibly imported from what are now the nations of Guinea. Sierra Leone, Liberia, Cote d’Ivoire, Ghana, Togo, Benin, Nigeria, Cameroon, Gabon, Congo, and a few others. And it is hilarious to see the arguments that he uses to keep out the “wrong sort” of people while he goes on to include among his “acceptable” people the Irish, Poles, Italians, and Spaniards who were the objects of _exactly the same_ arguments that they would destroy the fabric of American society when _they_ were immigrating. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/86 "2003-12-25T16:35:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > **So let me get this straight. You’re claiming that every single person who lived in the United States before 1965 was white? I claim that you’re wrong. You should either provide a cite to back yourself up or admit that you lied. Furthermore, as others have mentioned, the “White” race was only invented in the late 20th century, so during the first two centuries of our country’s history, we couldn’t have had “White” people.** Let me clue you into something right now. Everyone reading this thread can see the obvious disingenuousness in your rebuttal. As for the White race being “invented”, you move from disingenuous to ridiculous. Just replace “white” with “caucasian” for some introspection into your “observation” of a late 20th century “invention”. > [@](#): > > **First, regarding your example about the supposed wave of socialist immigrants in southern California. Is Southern California more or less prosperous now than forty years ago?** You are, as many others are, deluded by a facade of “tinseltown” constructed with the spending of money that is non-existant, and thus, creating a budget deficit that threatens the social infrastructure of the state. In order to prop up the “facade”, more and more must be demanded from the productive to support the non-productive. As a result, the “productive” are leaving California in droves, unlike forty years ago, when the “productive” were moving to California. > [@](#): > > **Second, you claim that socialist immigrants are guilty of the horrible crime of competing on an open free labor market,** Your assertion of an “open free labor market” would belie the existance of what is referred to as “illegal immigration”. > [@](#): > > \*\* Well, do you fight back against this with your consumer voice? Do you carefully ensure that every product and service you buy is made only by native born Americans, even if it means paying much higher prices? If not, then isn’t it hypocritical of you to say that the government should make every American do exactly that? \*\* To do so would require the availability of a choice. How much choice do Americans now have with regards to consumer electronics? Ever search for a pair of shoes without a “made in China” label? Forty years ago, it wasn’t like that. While we may not have had all the shiny trinkets we now have, the standards of everyday life were much higher. That’s my perception anyway. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/87 "2003-12-25T18:34:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Just replace “white” with “caucasian” for some introspection into your “observation” of a late 20th century “invention”. No, in this context, changing “white” to Caucasian" changes the actual discussion. The “Caucasian” race was invented in the late eighteenth century by early ethnologists attempting to apply Linnaean categories to humanity. It was later used and abused by nineteenth century ethnologists to promote racist programs such as slavery and colonization. However “white race,” although it was used, occasionally by earlier groups in _non_-scientific applications is, (as a pseudo-_scientific_ construct), as noted by **ITR champion** , pretty much a late 20th century invention. Considering that any number of odd people place some or all of Arabs, Persians, (East) Indians, and sometimes even Italians and Greeks, (all of whom are “Caucasian” in the older lists), outside the “white” race, your quoted remark is disingenuous to the point of dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/88 "2003-12-25T19:09:58Z")
I think that we’re not looking at this right. It’s our duty to help our friends at Stormfront come to logical conclusions about their premises. So, this thread has drifted too far. Let’s try again from the top. Is George Bush a traitor to the US, for announcing a blanket amnesty for twelve million illegal immigrants who are an army who seek to conquer the United States? [http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1221immigration21.html](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1221immigration21.html) Clearly, George Bush is against an amnesty, from this link Mr. Lindbergh has supplied. Furthermore, Mr. Ridge only stated that it would make _sense_ to give them some sort of legal status. The government is not required to make sense. Therefore, the current stand of the administration is against blanket amnesty. Secondly, we await the proof that these people are, in toto, an army, twelve million strong, organized and attempting a conquest of these united states. Any further questions or discussion _should_ take place in another debate, more suitable for them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/89 "2003-12-25T19:38:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Any further questions or discussion _should_ take place in another debate, more suitable for them. Actually, limiting as much paranoia, ignorance, illogic, racism, fear-mongering, and hatred to as few threads as possible seems a good idea to me. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/90 "2003-12-25T22:03:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Paradoxical \* > You idiot **Moderator’s Note:** **Paradoxical** , do not call other posters “idiots” in Great Debates. Don’t do that again–everyone in this thread has already received ample warning about this. ---
**Author:** ![gubernator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@gubernator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gubernator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/91 "2003-12-25T22:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > To do so would require the availability of a choice. How much choice do Americans now have with regards to consumer electronics? Ever search for a pair of shoes without a “made in China” label? Forty years ago, it wasn’t like that. While we may not have had all the shiny trinkets we now have, the standards of everyday life were much higher. That’s my perception anyway. The choice is available, only at a higher, corporate level. The company my mother works at is run by caucasians (well, Jews, so maybe not white in your definition). They are a big supplier who supply major stores, such as Wal-Mart and Pep Boys with car covers. The difference between car covers made in american factories and factories located in china is huge. The american stuff is significantly worse in quality, as well as cost 5-10 times more than the chinese stuff, depends on which factories you are using for the comparison. They chose to import from china, an obvious choice. If they are somehow forced to only buy from american factories, the quality of the car covers available in the US market would go down drastically, while the price of them would go up a hell lot higher. Same situation would happen for other products, such as electronic items or shoes, if their respective suppliers are forced to stick to only made-in-the-US stuff. So if your ideas of Higher Standards of Living involves having everything at a shittier quality and much higher price, then yeah, the Standards of Living were much better in the old days. You don’t see a lot of american made products in certain industries, because the american crap simply don’t compete. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/92 "2003-12-25T22:27:03Z")
> [@](#): > > **From razor** > Let me clue you into something right now. Everyone reading this thread can see the obvious disingenuousness in your rebuttal. Indeed? Judging by the other comments in this thread, it seems that everyone except you views my response as a valid one. You initially claimed that all immigrants to the United States prior to 1965 came from Eurpoean countries. I (and others) pointed out that millions actually came from African, Asian, and Latin American countries, and called on you to admit being wrong. You failed to admit to lying, but instead launched a personal insult at me. I’d love to hear you explain how my response was dishonest. > [@](#): > > You are, as many others are, deluded by a facade of “tinseltown” constructed with the spending of money that is non-existant, and thus, creating a budget deficit that threatens the social infrastructure of the state. In order to prop up the “facade”, more and more must be demanded from the productive to support the non-productive. As a result, the “productive” are leaving California in droves, unlike forty years ago, when the “productive” were moving to California. Buddy, let me clue you in to something. I live in southern Califnoria. I shop in southern California. I see what is actually happening in southern California everyday. I know what’s happening in this place far better than you do. What you know about southern California clearly comes from reading one or two biased articles. True we have a deficit, but others states have deficits too. California and all the other states will recover from this one just as we’ve recovered in the past. Now, since you refused to actually answer my questions the first time, let me ask them again. Is Southern California more or less prosperous now than forty years ago? Is the average standard of living higher or lower? What about for the entire country? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/93 "2003-12-25T23:00:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Charles A Lindbergh \* > \*\*The fact that more than 90% of everything that has ever been invented, has been created by European Whites \*\* Agriculture, electric batteries, wheel, maps, alphabet, law, windmills … Iraq Gunpowder, printing press, paper, paper money, compass … China base 10, buttons … India monotheism, bricks, ice cream … Persia loom, ink, beer … Eygypt ground coffee … Ethiopia ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/94 "2003-12-26T01:50:54Z")
zipper… Sweden! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/95 "2003-12-26T03:31:03Z")
Not to mention that the cradle of civilization is found near the Tigris and the Euphratis, not Western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/96 "2003-12-26T03:42:46Z")
It’s worth pointing out that the OP hasn’t posted to this or any other thread in over 36 hours. It’s possible he’s caught up in holiday cheer, but I suspect he’s just run back to his buddies at the other board, where they know how to treat “real” Americans right. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/97 "2003-12-26T11:15:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > **You initially claimed that all immigrants to the United States prior to 1965 came from Eurpoean countries. I (and others) pointed out that millions actually came from African, Asian, and Latin American countries, and called on you to admit being wrong. You failed to admit to lying, but instead launched a personal insult at me. I’d love to hear you explain how my response was dishonest.** That’s easy, I said: > [@](#): > > Of course foreigners founded this country. Foreigners from such countries as England, Scotland, Ireland, France, Germany, Poland, Spain, Italy, etc. In other words, European nations. And that is the way it was for two-hundred years, that is until 1965, when the brakes were put on traditional White European immigration and the gates were opened to “Third-world” immigration. See, I clearly did NOT say that ALL immigrants came from Europeon countries. There is your dishonesty. Funny how some grasp at exceptions to the rule, in a desperate attempt to disprove the rule. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/98 "2003-12-26T11:55:06Z")
Razorsharp, what’s your point, here? I fail to see how this has anything to do with the OP. And you clearly did imply such. But it’s okay, we understand how you want to overlook such things as the transcontinental railroad. I mean, clearly, that’s not important. No matter how many chinese died for it. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/99 "2003-12-26T12:26:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*No, in this context, changing “white” to Caucasian" changes the actual discussion. The “Caucasian” race was invented in the late eighteenth century by early ethnologists attempting to apply Linnaean categories to humanity. It was later used and abused by nineteenth century ethnologists to promote racist programs such as slavery and colonization. However “white race,” although it was used, occasionally by earlier groups in _non_-scientific applications is, (as a pseudo-_scientific_ construct), as noted by **ITR champion** , pretty much a late 20th century invention. > > Considering that any number of odd people place some or all of Arabs, Persians, (East) Indians, and sometimes even Italians and Greeks, (all of whom are “Caucasian” in the older lists), outside the “white” race, your quoted remark is disingenuous to the point of dishonesty. \*\* The assigning of a scientific nomenclature for the identification of a genus is not an act of “inventing”. That is as absurd as claiming that botanists invented the Oak tree, which is just about as absurd as claiming that immigrants from “Sierra Leone, Liberia, Cote d’Ivoire, Ghana, Togo, Benin, Nigeria, Cameroon, Gabon, Congo, and a few others” contributed to the founding of American society as those from England and Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/100 "2003-12-26T12:40:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* > \*\*And you clearly did imply such. But it’s okay, we understand how you want to overlook such things as the transcontinental railroad. I mean, clearly, that’s not important. No matter how many chinese died for it. \*\* Yeah, I’m terrible. You know what else? On a transcontinental flight, I give more credit to the pilot than I do the flight attendant. I guess I need to be sent to a re-education camp. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809.md?page=6)