# Bush & Tom Ridge Want To Amnesty 12 Million Illegals - Isn't This Treason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809 "2003-12-24T07:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![gubernator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@gubernator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gubernator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/141 "2003-12-27T23:10:17Z")
If you’re so afraid of caucasians becoming the minority within the US, why don’t ya just do your wives a bit more often and produce some more white kids, instead of complaining and quivering in fear of it on some internet message board? ---
**Author:** ![Millen89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Millen89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millen89)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/142 "2003-12-27T23:17:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*No, but I think _your_ point is an attempt at a reversal, following these lines: > > You: Situation A is genocidal. > Me: No, it isn’t. > You: It’s just like Situation B, which is genocidal. > Me: Situation B _is_ genocidal, but it bears only trivial similarity to Situation A. > You: So if Situation B was more similar to Situation A, it wouldn’t be genocidal? Perhaps I value different cultures more than you do. > > The last statement is a complete non-sequitor (and in fact, it’s completely contrary to your expressed concerns about “Mexifornia” and similar rhetoric, which suggests you don’t value different cultures at all, let alone more than me). What Mexico is doing to the U.S. is trivial compared to what China is doing to Tibet. You can’t put me on the defensive if your attack makes no sense. > > Preposterous. By that logic, the crime of murder is meaningless, because everyone dies eventually, anyway. > > And you’re actually right. The actions you describe _are_ genocidal. However, none of those actions are being used or contemplated for American whites, so what’s the relevance? You brought up the issue of Tibet, I’ll just keep pointing out that using Tibet as an analgoy to what is happening to American whites is ridiculous. > > You’ve given me more than ample ammunition to suggest that you feel threatened by non-white cultural icons of any kind (although, again, I haven’t yet seen a working definition of “white” on this thread). > > Is that supposed to offend me, or something? If I may clarify my own position, I’m not in favour of aggressively promoting multiple cultures (i.e. with government funding), but I have no problem whatsoever with immigrants bringing their cultures with them (provided they conform to the existing laws of Canada, i.e. no human sacrifices). If a family manages to keep and promote their culture and influence their neighbors by introducing them to new foods and rituals, fine. If instead the family thoroughly assimilates and become “Canadian”, also fine. I like a laissez-faire attitude toward culture, with elements dropping away if they are no longer needed or wanted. I feel absolutely no compulsion to “preserve” a culture for its own sake. Either the culture serves its citizens and they keep it, or it doesn’t and they change it. > > Well, there all all kinds of silly stories and legends bouncing around. Snopes doesn’t have an entry for this particular one, though. In fact, the only cite I can find from a quick google search is this [joke newsletter](http://activitiesboard.org/readme/archives/arch0203/031903/031903.pdf) (pdf file) from Carnegie Mellon. It wouldn’t surprise me if people passed this on as fact, especially if they already had a beef with the NAACP. > > Well, I’ll likely be dead by 2100 so it’s hard for me to get worked up about this. You’ll likely be dead, too, so “we” won’t really have anything, being dead and all. In any case, I find any prediction about the year 2100 to be pure speculation, though I’ll give it a shots. I doubt a successful religious attempt to curtail civil rights will happen in a western nation, barring World War III or a similar mass collapse. By 2100, I predict atheism and agnosticism to be so widespread that enforced religious rules will seem silly. > > And even if it does happen, secular America will have military technology so advanced, they can push a few buttons and individual persons 5000 miles away will simply explode. The world will hate them for their interference, but what else is new? \*\* Well, I can’t find a cite for the Clorox story, so you’ve got me there. I remember reading it on the net, but I tend to think a story as ridiculous as that would be widely reported. Thanks for catching my carelessness. As for the rest of your reply, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. There is one thing you said that I find interesting. > [@](#): > > **Well, I’ll likely be dead by 2100 so it’s hard for me to get worked up about this.** I’m more concerned about my daughters, nephews and nieces. What sort of a life will they lead when they grow up? What about their children? How will they be treated as minorities in the United States? I’m afraid the conclusions I’m reaching are quite frightening. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/143 "2003-12-27T23:32:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Millen88 \* > \*\*I’m more concerned about my daughters, nephews and nieces. What sort of a life will they lead when they grow up? What about their children? How will they be treated as minorities in the United States? I’m afraid the conclusions I’m reaching are quite frightening. \*\* Well, tell them to start breeding like rabbits, to hold the nonwhite hordes at bay. It doesn’t matter if they can’t support their many children. They can always, heh-heh, apply for welfare. I’ll wager that at least some of them will find attractive “foreign” mates, since the idea of maintaining “pure” bloodlines will seem even sillier circa 2030 than it does now. I seriously doubt any of them will be enslaved or disenfranchised or anything like that. The sort of life they lead will be largely up to them, and who happy or miserable they decide to be. Fretting about race, I’ve observed, offers much more potential for misery than happiness, so I hope they avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![gubernator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@gubernator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gubernator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/144 "2003-12-27T23:47:09Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m more concerned about my daughters, nephews and nieces. What sort of a life will they lead when they grow up? What about their children? How will they be treated as minorities in the United States? I’m afraid the conclusions I’m reaching are quite frightening. Perhaps starting the trend of being nice to minorities, so that in the future your kids can benefit from it? hehehe. U.S born minority members who speak english just fine are treated decently, for the most part, in a good portion of this country, so I doubt it’d be that bad for your future offsprings IF they even are the minority. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/145 "2003-12-28T00:10:09Z")
Of course, even if Whites did become a minority, they’d be a large one out of several. Will the Black, Hispanic, and Asian communities really band together against whitey? I doubt it. And, of course, White folks will still have the money (that’s the thing about illegal immigrants, they’re poor as shit, that’s almost the point, really), and thus the political clout for many years to come. Then, if the economic sitation becomes more equitable, we still have the consititution to fall back on, as well as the charity of the new non-white dominate classes. Do you really think the rich, content Hispanics of a hundred years hence will be that bloodthirsty against white people? In large enough groups to curtail White folks’ rights? Me, I’m not worried. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/146 "2003-12-28T00:17:37Z")
Speaking of the constitution, i can’t find anything in it that says the United States was founded as a white republic, so to answer the OP’s original question, I can’t see how something that might diminish the influence of whites could be construed as treasonous. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/147 "2003-12-28T00:33:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m more concerned about my daughters, nephews and nieces. What sort of a life will they lead when they grow up? What about their children? How will they be treated as minorities in the United States? I’m afraid the conclusions I’m reaching are quite frightening. You have a right to be as frightened as you want, but you probably shouldn’t expect us to be terribly frightened of your hypothetical situation without a good reason. Remember, **Charles A.** barged in here declaring that Hispanic immigrants had an intention of “invading” and “destroying” America. When we asked him to back that up with some facts, he bravely turned his tail and fled. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Hispanic immigrants will be in any way hostile to native-born American citizens now or at any time in the future. Don’t millions of immigrants live and work peacefully side by side with citizens right now? As to the equally hypothetical scenario of Muslims taking over France, same thing. It’s built on the assumption that every person who arrives from any Muslim country must be part of a grand comspiracy to take over and eliminate French culture. But that’s ridiculous. Many of the immigrants left the Arab world precisely because they wanted to get away from Islamic fundamentalist governments. And the greatest number of Muslim immigrants to France come from Turkey and Algeria, the two most Democratic countries in the Muslim world. And finally, all scenarios of whites becoming a minority by 2050, etc…, come with that tricky modifier “if current trends continue”. Current trends rarely continue. ---
**Author:** ![Millen89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Millen89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millen89)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/148 "2003-12-28T01:25:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > \*\*You have a right to be as frightened as you want, but you probably shouldn’t expect us to be terribly frightened of your hypothetical situation without a good reason. Remember, **Charles A.** barged in here declaring that Hispanic immigrants had an intention of “invading” and “destroying” America. When we asked him to back that up with some facts, he bravely turned his tail and fled. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Hispanic immigrants will be in any way hostile to native-born American citizens now or at any time in the future. Don’t millions of immigrants live and work peacefully side by side with citizens right now? > > As to the equally hypothetical scenario of Muslims taking over France, same thing. It’s built on the assumption that every person who arrives from any Muslim country must be part of a grand comspiracy to take over and eliminate French culture. But that’s ridiculous. Many of the immigrants left the Arab world precisely because they wanted to get away from Islamic fundamentalist governments. And the greatest number of Muslim immigrants to France come from Turkey and Algeria, the two most Democratic countries in the Muslim world. > > And finally, all scenarios of whites becoming a minority by 2050, etc…, come with that tricky modifier “if current trends continue”. Current trends rarely continue. \*\* And I suppose your advice to Tibetans living under Chinese occupation would be: Just accept the destruction of your nation, and then you’ll have fewer problems. My French scenario does not rely on that assumption. It’s just based on my beliefs that most ethnic groups tend vote for their own interests, and French Culture is worth saving. What if you thought my French scenario was a possibility? What would you do? Is this something you’d support? I’m trying to make sure that current trends don’t continue. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/149 "2003-12-28T01:26:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Of course he didn’t know, because it’s untrue. According to the latest stats, the population of Amsterdam is about 63% “white”. I’d debunk the rest of your deluded nonsense too, but frankly, I have an idea you won’t be around for that much longer. \*\* Wrong about London too. If _every single ethnic minority in the UK_ lived in London at the time of the 2002 census, they’d _still_ only make up about a third of the population. As it is, they make up 6.4% of the UK population. And even then, that’s counting “White - Irish” and “White - Other” as ethnic minorities. Sorry, **Charlie** , but I call “shenanigans” on your facts. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Charles A Lindburgh_ > Did you ever travel to any of those glorious citadels of our people when they were 100% White? It wasn’t long ago. I was there. I remember it. If so, you’re pretty damn old. London hasn’t been 100% white for a long, long time. > [@](#): > > Your children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, great-great-grandchildren and their great-great-grandchildren will never get to see it, know it, or even imagine it! And thank God, I say. Why would I want my children to live in a world where one group feels it has the right to do whatever it wants to another group based solely on race? Horrifying. As it is, I can talk to people of a variety of races, cultures and backgrounds. Some have lived in London for generations; some for mere weeks. Some come from well-to-do families, while others come in hopes of bettering their situations. Some are unscrupulous criminals; many – even most – are not. Many of them work very hard indeed. I can’t imagine London without its population of recent immigrants (i.e. within the last century). Even just picking on the most obvious stereotypes, who would run the corner shops, which require long hours of work for small profit? What would British food be without the influence of Indian cuisine (I’ll ignore, for the moment, the fact that immigration has also brought London the kebab)? It’d be a pretty damn boring country, I tell you. And given that chicken tikka masala is far and away the most popular food in the UK (and it’s not the Indians ordering it, trust me), I’m not alone in my assessment. And that’s not even touching on the myriad other cultures that have influenced Britain and the uncountable other roles that immigrants and their descendants have played. Does anyone have their copy of _Jingo_ handy? There’s a great conversation between Fred and Nobby about immigrants that bears repeating here. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/150 "2003-12-28T02:25:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Razorsharp** _: > That’s nothing but pseudo-intellectual psycho-babble. The differing groups existed prior to their scientific nomenclature being “invented”, and were easily recognized by the layman through simple observation rather than the science of genetics. > > While the genetic diversity of the groups may be minimal, it is through thousands of years of evolution that explains the differences in intelligence, skills and traditions of the different groups. Which different groups? Throughout history we can find lots of people referring to their close neighbors in terms of extrme xenophobia (even though–or especially because–those neighbors had recent kinship). On the other hand, we do not have many examples of people identifying others and assigning “qualities” to them based on superficial differences. The Greeks surely knew of dark-skinned Africans (and put the “origin” of their dark-skin into the legend of Phaeton), but they did not make any silly claims about the nature of black people other than noticing their darker skin. Similarly, when the ethnologists began inventing races, Linnaeus came up with four, Blumenbach found five, and later guys decided on three. As the parsing became general (and even sillier) some people eventually got up to sixty races. If races are so “real,” why are they not sufficiently obvious as to have a definite number? “Easily recognized by the layman”? They are not even agreed upon by the very people who were trying to make it a scientific discipline. Thousands of years certainly give different cultural groups different traditions. However, the notion that the “three” (or “four,” or “five,” or “sixty”) “races” have differing intelligence or skills is just silly, generally promoted by people who have a need to invent differences (always with their own group on the top of their hierarchy). Posting this nonsense as “fact” continues your tradition on this thread, however. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/151 "2003-12-28T02:43:09Z")
BTW, now you are attempting to have me say something I have not said: > [@](#): > > But, when pointing out differences between the races, groups, sub-species or whatever “invented” category, that can be attributed to evolution, liberals start wailing and stomping their feet, demanding that “we’re all the same.” Clearly there are differences among groups. However, the differences are all superficial differences of appearance and they blend so much at the edges of any geographic “group,” (whether three or sixty), that they do not meet the _scientific_ standards to be identified as subspecies. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/152 "2003-12-28T04:31:54Z")
**Razorsharp** , Most of Western Europe supports bigger government than that found anywhere in the US. France, Britain, the Netherlands, Germany, not to mention the Scandinavian countries all have much broader safety nets and more extensive social programs - with higher taxes to pay for them. In spite of recent immigration, all these countries are still very “white”, and support for large scale social programs in these countries began when the non white populations were miniscule. So your “white = anti big government” formula simply doesn’t work. In the US, some of the whitest states have shown the most support for bigger government - Minnesota being the classic example. The standard explanation for this is that the Germans, Scandinavians and mittelEuropeans that settled the Upper Midwest saw appropriate government regulation and public spending for the common good as crucial to a well ordered society and good quality of life. The largely Scots-Irish frontiersman culture of the South and West , on the other hand, was much more hostile to government of any kind, and particularly opposed to any measure that might benefit blacks Americans or Native Americans. These are over-simplifications of course, but they do point to the fact that there have always been substantial cultural differences between different groups of “whites.” Howard Dean, the (somewhat) liberal Democratic frontrunner was elected governor by the overwhelmingly white Vermont electorate, as was self-described Socialist congressman Bernie Sanders. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/153 "2003-12-28T04:55:33Z")
\*But, when pointing out differences between the races, groups, sub-species or whatever “invented” category, that can be attributed to evolution, liberals start wailing and stomping their feet, demanding that “we’re all the same.” \* The problem is that most of this racial theorizing is crackpot pseudo-science. Normally, reputable scientists don’t rush to conclusions when the available data are so complex and contradictory. White supremacist organizations like the Pioneer Fund finance these racial theorists. Both the givers and recievers of these funds know what’s expected. Overall, it’s a new version of the southern divide and conquer strategy. Convince whites that non whites are alien and inferior, and trick whites into opposing any reform that might also benefit nonwhites. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/154 "2003-12-28T10:39:58Z")
I’ve got a question for **Millen88** and **Razorsharp**. Two days ago, despite having lived in America for many, many years, my family celebrated Boxing Day by having a party at which we had, among other thing, sausage rolls, trifle, and cream-filled meringues. Do you see this as an attempt to take over America’s culture? If so, why? If not, how does this differ from similar things done by Hispanics? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/155 "2003-12-28T12:34:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Millen88 \* > **And I suppose your advice to Tibetans living under Chinese occupation would be: Just accept the destruction of your nation, and then you’ll have fewer problems.** Your repeated references to Tibet are taking on an air of desperation. It’s as if we were having a thread discussing recipes and you kept bringing up Jeffrey Dahmer. What Mexico and other nations are doing to the U.S. is completely trivial compared to what China is doing to Tibet. By insisting that up is down and black is white (heh-heh) you undermine any other logic in your position. Do whites (and the term is _ **still** _ undefined) have a “nation”, distinct and seperate from non-white American citizens? If you analogy to Tibet is to have any meaning at all, exactly what “destruction” is taking place? ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/156 "2003-12-28T15:43:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > **I just read tomndebb’s post carefully, and I didn’t find anything relating to psychology in it. Could you offer a fuller explanation of how it qualifies as psycho-babble?** It was nothing more than a rambling smokescreen to trumpet the liberal party-line of multiculturalism and diversity. But, wait a minute… wouldn’t multiculturalism and diversity belie the liberal party-line that “we are all the same”? Hmmm… Orwellian “double-think” comes to mind. And speaking of multiculturalism and diversity, isn’t it just wonderful that, thanks to the changes of immigration policy, we now have communities that have brought us such cultural diversity as female genital mutilation? So, how does it qualify as psycho-babble? Well, you got to be psychotic if you think that’s good. > [@](#): > > **As mentioned before, sixty years ago everyone knew that “Italian”, etc… were all separate races. If “the layman” can easily observe the differences between races, why did yesterday’s layman observe something entirely different from today’s layman?.** You’re confusing “race” and “ethnicity” to make a silly point. It is not so much “race” as it is “culture” that is sometimes an anathema to traditional American society. It’s just that certain cultures reside within certain races. ie. Female genital mutilation. > [@](#): > > \*\*But what explains the fact that you’re consistently unable to provide any evidence that such differences exist? > > If you ever decide to point out any difference, I’ll be happy to listen. You keep insisting that differences exist, but failing to provide any examples of them.\*\* Well, being that all I can do to at this venue is type, my ability to provide evidence is somewhat limited. So, as a manner of providing evidence, let me ask you (and all others that say that “race” is an artificial construct). With regards to the recent Supreme Court ruling, what criteria does the University of Michigan use when deciding what applicants receive “bonus points” for being a “minority”? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/157 "2003-12-28T15:52:55Z")
“We are all the same” should translate to “We should all be treated equal by the ‘system’” not “everyone is identical”. But I’m guessing you knew that and you’re just being rethoric. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/158 "2003-12-28T16:28:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoneburg \* > \*\*“We are all the same” should translate to “We should all be treated equal by the ‘system’” not “everyone is identical”. But I’m guessing you knew that and you’re just being rethoric. 😕 \*\* Exactly, and that should extend to being treated equally by any university’s board of admissions, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/159 "2003-12-28T16:47:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*Exactly, and that should extend to being treated equally by any university’s board of admissions, right? \*\* Hey, if you want to discuss affirmiative action and similar programs, that’s one thing. If you want to use that as evidence that whites (_ **still** _ undefined) are under mass attack, then I call “bullshit!” on you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809/160 "2003-12-28T16:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > With regards to the recent Supreme Court ruling, what criteria does the University of Michigan use when deciding what applicants receive “bonus points” for being a “minority”? They use the social construct of race. I do not particularly agree with the UoM policy, but you are confusing two separate uses of the word race (of the three or four available definitions). Clearly, the people who invented the various races used physical characteristics to identify the people who would be placed in each “racial” category. No one denies that some features can be used to distinguish people by appearance. The problem has been that some people (you, apparently among them) have gone beyond just the separation of appearances to believing (based on no evidence and a simple desire to exalt your own opinion of your own group) that the physical features demonstrate underlying realities such as intelligence and skill. You also claim that those features can be used to identify all the people who have the traits (such as intelligence and skill). The reality is that neither the layman nor the scientist has been able to come up with a genuine definition of who belongs to what race (or even how many races exist) and no one has been able to provide evidence of different skills held by the three or four or five or sixty groups. In the U.S., where the majority of people have come from three distinct regions of the world, we can make gross judgements, based on appearance, to sort people by race _in the U.S._. Had the U.S. been settled earlier by people from a wider variety of regions in the world, it would be clearer that the “races” are artificial. (Even with the few regions we have, there are people making crazy claims that Italians and Greeks are not “white.”) The white supremacists get stuck because they really want to divide the world into “white” and “other” and they have to throw in one or two groups on the “other” list in order to pretend that there is a reality behind their manufactured prejudices. Given that they cannot even agree on who is white (just as you have fled from identifying which people are white and **Charles A. Lindbergh** has been afraid to provide a definition of who is white), it is pretty clear that the doublespeak is not on the side of the people who are pointing out how artificial race is as a construct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-tom-ridge-want-to-amnesty-12-million-illegals-isnt-this-treason/220809.md?page=9)