# Bush - Torture saves lives **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112 "2010-11-09T23:49:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/61 "2010-11-10T22:57:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Again, that may be why it was necessary to torture Sheikh Mohammed Khalid so many times. Each time they’d get a new piece of information indicating he knew about something… Or, alternatively, he didn’t know diddly squat and made it up as they went along. Being normal humans, that is to say, stupid, they refused to believe that they had a ringer, they refused to believe that they didn’t have a gold mine of information, so they believed that he was simply holding out on them, sending them on wild goose chases but keeping the real stuff hidden. Though I note with chagrin that this bears the imprimatur of George W. Bush, that these interrogations were effective and saved many lives. One hesitates to cast doubt on the testimony of such a paragon of open candor and unblemished truthiness. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/62 "2010-11-10T23:04:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Or, alternatively, he didn’t know diddly squat and made it up as they went along. Being normal humans, that is to say, stupid, they refused to believe that they had a ringer, they refused to believe that they didn’t have a gold mine of information, so they believed that he was simply holding out on them, sending them on wild goose chases but keeping the real stuff hidden. Yes, that’s a possibility, though in my opinion it’s unlikely. Either way though, my solution, which calls for judicial oversight, would solve that problem wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/63 "2010-11-10T23:05:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But there’s the rub, the “right circumstances”. For which read: very rare circumstances. I don’t know how rare those circumstances need to be, and it certainly depends on how high level the person is in the organization. The higher up, the more info the guy has. KSM was quite high up. > [@](#): > > Isn’t that how you would run a clandestine revolutionary movement? Assuming Mensa was making a bid for world domination? What’s “Mensa”? Sounds like a monthly meeting of women during their “special time”… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/64 "2010-11-10T23:09:12Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > You don’t understand. The argument isn’t that torturers and torture-apologists such as yourself are morally inferior to hardcore Muslims, it’s that they’re morally inferior to those of us that don’t condone torture. Sharia law doesn’t even enter the picture; I can’t imagine why you even mentioned it. I am sure that what Qin meant was that if we tortured a bunch of hardcore Muslims, it might lead to information that would save some Muslim women from being stoned to death. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/65 "2010-11-10T23:14:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > If you accept some crazy made up scenario, you have OKed torture. Then your job is decide what the proper threshold is. Bush set one pretty damn low. So you have to assuage your guilt by setting a higher one. But the act of torture is wrong. > Doing those acts to another human being is an act of evil that diminishes you. You are not the same person once you have done it. America can never go back to who we were and what we strived for. Thanks BUsh. Oh, sure we can, Gonzo. All it takes is renoucing torture. Problem is, some of us are not gonna want to renounce torture, cause there are always sick fucks around who like stuff like that. Bush did them all an enormous favor, but he did not put them in ascendancy in America now and forevermore. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/66 "2010-11-10T23:15:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yes, that’s a possibility, though in my opinion it’s unlikely. And according to the actual interrogation professionals, it’s more likely than not. That’s one reason why _they_ don’t torture people; it is a grossly inferior form of interrogation, besides being evil. Torture is committed by people who don’t know what they are doing, by people who want to hear the appropriate lies instead of the truth, and by sadists, not serious interrogators. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/67 "2010-11-10T23:30:06Z")
The people questioning Sheikh Mohammed Khalid and his two cronies were not serious interrogators? I doubt very much that the U.S. military, with Oval Office oversight no less, turned the questioning of these men over to a random bunch of bozos who had no idea what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/68 "2010-11-10T23:35:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The people questioning Sheikh Mohammed Khalid and his two cronies were not serious interrogators? I doubt very much that the U.S. military, with Oval Office oversight no less, turned the questioning of these men over to a random bunch of bozos who had no idea what they were doing. No, that’s exactly what they did. The real interrogators were kind of pissed about their subjects being taken away from them and tortured by thugs, and in the process ruined as an information source. But the Bush Administration was more interested in indulging their sadism and in getting the answers they wanted to hear than it was in the the truth. Torture IS good at getting random people snatched off the street to admitting to be members of Al Qaeda. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/69 "2010-11-10T23:56:26Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > If you’re going to torture, own up to it > > Bush and his cronies tried to have their cake and eat it too: first they said they didn’t torture, then they said what they did didn’t amount to torture, and finally they rationalized it by saying that it saved lives > > I read a conservative rant during the whole torture scandal about how people cheer for Jack Bauer because he tortures and gets the job done. Well Jack Bauer also doesn’t deny his culpability, one liberal columnist responded. Jack Bauer willingly gives himself up at the end of the day to be tried for what he did > > So if Bush wanted to use torture at all to defend it, then he and his gang of inquisitors should own up to it. Tell the American people that yes, they tortured, they are proud of it, and that waterboarding KSM hundreds of times saved lives. Then repeat that to a jury and let his fate be decided by a court of justice. Not this hiding behind his cronies crap People who in a calm moment away from the heat claim that water boarding is not torture, that it is effective or that it saves lives are disclosing that they are despicable monsters with no morality whatsoever. It doesn’t mean that they are not able to do simple math and hold jobs, but they are demonstrating that they have a completely unacceptable value system. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/70 "2010-11-10T23:59:25Z")
I’ve read the same material as you, **Der** , and agree it is a solid point. However, it is entirely possible that this material has not reached **Starving** through his, ah, news sources. The testimony of professional interrogators is very relevant, but remains uncited. I believe that, according to SDMB protocol, that citation hunt properly belongs to you. I would go find it myself but I’m lazy and easily…oooh, shiny! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/71 "2010-11-11T01:42:15Z")
I see **Der Trihs** has refused to answer my charges… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/72 "2010-11-11T02:09:01Z")
I can’t help but notice you’ve failed to answer my question regarding the relevance of your opinion of Sharia law when attempting to justify your support of torture as well. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/73 "2010-11-11T13:31:10Z")
> [@Hold\_Fast](#): > > For a long time I’ve believed that torture under almost any circumstances is wrong, yet after thinking about, I think there are _some_ instances in which I probably would condone it. Lets suppose perhaps, that a group of terriosts got a nuke, took over a plane headed towards the US with the nuke on board, but accidently left a man of theirs behind who is the only one who knows the remote de-activation codes. Lets also, for the sake of arguing, say that we have some way of knowing if the nuke has been disarmed. This is all far-fetched I know, but if it came down to torturing one guy for the sake of millions that are at the moment in immenient danger of being nuked, I think we all would torture the guy. > > Of course this is a bit of wild example and so wouldn’t occur very often, but I would say the ethics of torture depends on the situation. By the same token I’m sure you’d agree that people in fear of attack by the US are sometimes morally justified in torturing US suspects, right? ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/74 "2010-11-11T13:33:31Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I see **Der Trihs** has refused to answer my charges… So waterboard him. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/75 "2010-11-11T18:15:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Second, I don’t care. Torturing people to “save lives” just demonstrates that you are on the side that deserves to _lose_ lives. > [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > So, your saying our men and women in the armed forces deserve to die? Is that a whoosh, or are you really unaware that **Der Trihs** has been saying just that pretty much since he first registered on the Dope? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/76 "2010-11-11T18:49:58Z")
The rhythm of the torture denial, followed by a weak confession and denying it is torture at all. Then claiming it was good and saved lives. It is in sync with his invasion of Iraq justification. I know they have weapons. They might have weapons. They don’t have WMD but it does not matter because we overthrew a mean dictator. He keeps floating lies until he finds one the right wing press can push until weak minded people begin to believe it. We can never go back to being a nation that does not attack a sovereign nation that did not attack us first, or at all. We can never again saying we believe in a proper treatment of prisoners and will not torture. How are we better than our enemies now? He fundamentally changed who we are and what we are. It was terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/77 "2010-11-11T21:24:36Z")
I believe you are mistaken **Gx**. This business of lying, wars of aggression and torture is how he was elected twice. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/78 "2010-11-11T21:51:30Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > This business of lying, wars of aggression and torture is how he was elected twice. Yes, and being spectacularly wrong on WMD’s somehow _improves_ the credibility of his assessment of the utility of torture, for some. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/79 "2010-11-12T00:07:00Z")
Quoth **Starving Artist** : > [@](#): > > I think he’d be more likely to lie and stall when offered women or money or the words of an Imam. If we were doing stuff like that, he’d be told when training that it was all bullshit and that we wouldn’t actually give him all that stuff, and they would warn him about infidel Imams who would try to get him to stray from the path of righteousness. > > And your presumption that torture would result in false information (presumably, that is, since you seem to feel that torture would ipso-facto result in the death of everyone in the plane) is patently false and has no grounding in reality. If torture was such a notorisously ineffective way of gaining information, why has it been used and refined so many times over the centuries? To claim that torture is utterly and invariably ineffective, as you appear to be doing, is nothing but a politcal statement. And one which flies in the face of logic and experience. We got a lot of really good, usable intelligence from interrogations in World War II. You know how those interrogators got that information? By sitting down and talking with their subjects, being friendly, maybe buying them a nice meal. It really does work. Your argument for the effectiveness of torture is circular. Why, you ask, would we use torture if it doesn’t work? In the kindest interpretation, we use torture because a lot of people mistakenly believe that it works. Why do they believe that? Because, of course, we do it, and why would we do it if it didn’t work? Of course, the considerably less kind interpretation, and probably more likely, is that we torture because the people doing the torturing are sadistic sociopaths who have somehow landed in positions of authority where they can carry out their sick fantasies. They don’t even need to believe that it would work, for that explanation. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112/80 "2010-11-12T00:14:16Z")
I have seen many interrogators on Tv say that good intel comes from carefully cultivating a relationship and earning trust. A person being tortured will say anything to make the pain stop. They will fill in the blanks with whatever you want to hear. It is not reliable. Saddam gave a lot of info to the guy who was assigned to him. He was not tortured. Once you gain some trust, it is amazing how open they can become. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-torture-saves-lives/560112.md?page=5)