# Bush v. Kerry, Round Three **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997 "2004-10-13T13:53:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/561 "2004-10-14T04:18:30Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > If these threads are no more than lefty groupthink, why do you trouble yourself with them? Because this place, in general, prizes critical thinking and analysis. Pointing out the lack of those qualities when they fail to manifest will, I hope, lessen the instances of groupthink. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/562 "2004-10-14T04:23:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because this place, in general, prizes critical thinking and analysis. Pointing out the lack of those qualities when they fail to manifest will, I hope, lessen the instances of groupthink. Waving the flag of critical thinking and analysis might work better if you at least acknowledge that previous debates [did](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6159637/site/newsweek/) affect polls in Kerry’s favour. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/563 "2004-10-14T04:23:04Z")
> [@5que](#): > > We must preserve the sanctity of the hard drive. Partitioning is a horrible procedure and should be banned by constitutional amendment. Only to protect the life or health of the motherboard. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/564 "2004-10-14T05:02:56Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > Waving the flag of critical thinking and analysis might work better if you at least acknowledge that previous debates [did](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6159637/site/newsweek/) affect polls in Kerry’s favour. Absolutely. But not nearly to the degree that one would expect if the reaction of the first and second debate threads’ participants were shared by the country at large. I acknowledged myself that Kerry won the first debate, by any reasonable measure. But each thread was a veritable onslaught, a barrage, against the President, with little or no attempt to acknowledge two sides of any question. This is what I keep trying to point out: while this board is largely convinced that Bush (excuse me: “Bushco”) is Evil Incarnate, the real country is very evenly divided. And these divisions do not arise simply because people are “sheeple,” or easily fooled by the nefrious Karl Rove. Undoubtedly, ignorance drives some Bush support - just as, undoubtedly, ignorance drives some Kerry support. Some Bush support arises from a principled analysis of the issues - as, assuredly, some Kerry support arises from a principled analysis of the issues. Reasonable people of good faith may disagree on the proper role of government in education, for example, and that disagreement may form the basis for support of a particular candidate. It irks me no end that there is such seeming blindness on this – that so many Kerry supporters simply contend that Bush supporters are evil, ignorant, or selfish. And these threads simply allow the worst of these sneering partisans to wallow in mutal admiration of snide putdowns, rather than engaging in even the slightest exercise in rational and fair-minded discourse. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/565 "2004-10-14T05:09:07Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Min wage should be at least $10.00 an hour. Why stop there? Let’s just make it $100/hr and then we’ll all be rich… :rolleyes: Nothing personal, **DtC**. Your post just gave me a jumping off point. It’s no worse than the rest of the drivel on these pages… Wow, I came into this thread after the debate looking for some intelligent dicsussion and found the biggest Bush-whacking cluster fuck I’ve ever seen on this board. Good job, guys. Good job. I’ll get the hell out of here and let you guys jerk each other off in relative privacy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/566 "2004-10-14T05:32:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Absolutely. But not nearly to the degree that one would expect if the reaction of the first and second debate threads’ participants were shared by the country at large. You’re the only one who seems to expect that. I don’t even expect that my reaction to the debates would be shared by the public at large. I am quite a bit smarter than the public at large and I don’t expect them to operate at my level. ---
**Author:** ![jabiru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@jabiru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabiru)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/567 "2004-10-14T09:23:42Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Fox is pretending that Bush won again. They won’t point out the lying, of course. Did I make a mistake watching the Debate on Fox? I’m waaaaaaaaaaay over the other side of the Pacific but I do have an interest in how this all turns out. I was gobsmacked when I heard the Fox people saying Bush had won the Debate. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/568 "2004-10-14T10:14:41Z")
> [@jabiru](#): > > Did I make a mistake watching the Debate on Fox? I’m waaaaaaaaaaay over the other side of the Pacific but I do have an interest in how this all turns out. I was gobsmacked when I heard the Fox people saying Bush had won the Debate. Nah, it’s just Fox, being their usual “fair and balanced” selves. Bush was certainly better than he was in the first two debates, despite his becoming almost a Johnny One-Note on education. But Kerry cranked his game up a couple of notches. Up until now, I was for Kerry because as an alternative to Bush, I’d be for any reasonably presentable candidate with common sense, a reasonable amount of brains, and a sense of responsibility. Kerry qualified on all counts. But after last night, I am unequivocally _for Kerry_. _This man_ will make a _great_ President of the United States, not just because he’s not Bush, but because I’m convinced he’s the right man to lead us in a most challenging time. Looks like Kerry [moved the needle](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/14/1256/2673) a bit already, btw. Looks like I wasn’t the only one. 44 rocked the house. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/569 "2004-10-14T10:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > If you think Kerry will win then you should take advantage of the excellent odds at Tradesports. You can buy Kerry at 4.2 cents on the dollar. If you believe those polls, then you can arb a quick 10% return on your money. A friend of mine “shorted” Bush at tradesports two weeks ago when it was trading at 68.5; now it is down to 54.5. (That’s for a contract that pays $100 if Bush wins, $0 if he loses.) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/570 "2004-10-14T10:29:21Z")
I think a clear decision for Kerry. Most folks who watch aren’t going to go back and check facts, what they do is look at the demeanor. In that, Kerry clearly was calm, forceful, and presidential. Bush looked shrill and irritable, at times a bit out of it. Kerry’s one mistake: stating he would have a litmus test for Supreme Court vacancies. That is going to mobilize the anti-abortion crowd (of course,they vote in droves anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/571 "2004-10-14T14:53:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It irks me no end that there is such seeming blindness on this – that so many Kerry supporters simply contend that Bush supporters are evil, ignorant, or selfish. And these threads simply allow the worst of these sneering partisans to wallow in mutal admiration of snide putdowns, rather than engaging in even the slightest exercise in rational and fair-minded discourse. > [@John Mace](#): > > Wow, I came into this thread after the debate looking for some intelligent dicsussion and found the biggest Bush-whacking cluster fuck I’ve ever seen on this board. Good job, guys. Good job. > > I’ll get the hell out of here and let you guys jerk each other off in relative privacy. There’s a certain irony in the juxtaposition of these two posts. Of course, there’s also a certain irony in your posts all by themselves, **Bricker**. Your most consistent contribution to all three debate threads has been the same snarky one-liner. “I’m sure the polls will now swing Kerry’s way, right?” Of course, the polls _did_ swing Kerry’s way the first time you asked that question, but that’s not important because they didn’t swing lots and lots, and your point _really_ was that you were tired of sneering partisans with their snide putdowns, which you express by calling Kerry supporters in this thread “sneering partisans”, wallowing in “mutual admiration of their snide putdowns”. I too have little love lost for people blinded by dogma on _either_ side of the debate. But please don’t think snarky one-liners are advancing the great crusade of rationality. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/572 "2004-10-14T15:22:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But after last night, I am unequivocally _for Kerry_. _This man_ will make a _great_ President of the United States, not just because he’s not Bush, but because I’m convinced he’s the right man to lead us in a most challenging time. Before last night’s debate, I too, was a “Anything but Bush” voter. But after seeing Kerry in action and comparing him with Bush, I’m strongly **FOR** Kerry now. I think his vision of where to lead America is the right choice. He’s saying things that resonate with me and what I think is right for this country. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/573 "2004-10-14T15:44:40Z")
[http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc66.htm](http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc66.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/574 "2004-10-14T15:54:08Z")
From [http://www.politics1.com](http://www.politics1.com): > [@](#): > > ]TRACKING THE BATTLEGROUND STATES … AND THE FINAL DEBATE. ARIZONA (Northern Arizona University): Bush-49%, Kerry-44%, Badnarik-1%. IOWA (Chicago Tribune): Bush-47%, Kerry-45%, Nader-1%. IOWA (ARG): Bush and Kerry tied at 47% apiece. MINNESOTA (Chicago Tribune): Kerry-45%, Bush-43%, Nader-2%. OHIO (Chicago Tribune): Kerry-49%, Bush-45%. OREGON (ARG): Kerry-49%, Bush-44%. WISCONSIN (Chicago Tribune): Kerry-47%, Bush-43%, Nader-2%. THE THIRD DEBATE: Actually, I thought it was rather a yawner. Bush and Kerry both played it very safe. Each man came prepared with their memorized attack sound bites and poorly delivered jokes (and generally unfunny ones at that). The debate certainly won’t change the look of the race – as it generally lacked news or fireworks – so expect the contest to stay razor close for these final three weeks. In retrospect, if I had known it was going to be this dull of an affair, I wish they had let Cobb, Badnarik, Peroutka, Nader, Brown … heck, even the two rival Prohibitionist tickets … into the debate to liven it up. > Posted by Ron Gunzburger - 10.14.04 | COMMENTS (117) And from [http://www.electoral-vote.com/:](http://www.electoral-vote.com/:) > [@](#): > > Modern politics is (unfortunately) more about expectations than about reality. Consequently, Gallup ran a poll BEFORE the third debate asking who was going to win? The results: 54% expected Kerry to win, 36% expected Bush to win, 10% expected a tie. > > Now for the actual results. After the debate, a Gallup poll showed Kerry to be the winner 52% to 39%, not far from expectations. A CBS poll of uncommitted voters after the debate showed that 39% thought Kerry had won and 25% thought Bush had won. An ABC News poll showed Kerry barely won, 42% to 41%. However, the ABC poll had 38% Republicans and 30% Democrats, so breaking even in a group skewed towards the GOP has to be considered a Kerry win. ARG didn’t run a large-scale poll this time. Still, the clear conclusions: Kerry won the first and third debates; the second one was a tie. Cheney did better than his boss and won the VP debate. > > A new ARG poll in Iowa makes that state a tie again, but other than that, no states changed today. > > The Economist ran a national poll Oct. 11-12. It was a statistical tie, with Kerry at 47% and Bush at 45%. On the subject of Bush’s job approval, 44% said he was doing a good job vs. 52% who said he wasn’t. Since incumbents rarely score much above their approval rating, this has to be worrisome to Karl Rove. Of some note to people who have followed the “bulge” story, one of the questions The Economist asked was if the respondent saw the picture of Bush with the rectangular bulge. Of those who saw it, 49% said he was wired for getting help by radio. Fortunately for him, only a quarter of the respondents saw the photo. Several people from the TV world have told me that his poor performance in the first debate might have been due to the fact that it takes a lot of practice to listen and talk at the same time. The first few times you try it are said to be confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/575 "2004-10-14T15:56:43Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > [http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc66.htm](http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc66.htm) THis is misleading, inasmuch as Drudge isn’t really part of the party, so his underhandedness is not a representation of Republican party underhandedness. Consider: he claims that the Kerry Edwards campaign says to “CHARGE VOTER INTIMIDATION, EVEN IF NONE EXISTS.” Really, the manual in question says to do the following thing if there’s not evidence of voter intimidation: > [@](#): > > Issue a press release: > i. Reviewing Republican tactic used in the past in your area or state > ii. Quoting party/minority/civil rights leadership as denouncing tactics that discourage people from voting In other words, if there’s no evidence of voter intimidation in the current election cycle, still speak out on the issue, **in order to prevent people from thinking they could get away with it**. Drudge is a liar, but your intimation that this is an underhanded tactic of the Republican party is baseless. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/576 "2004-10-14T15:56:56Z")
**Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic Min wage should be at least $10.00 an hour.** Do you know the potential repurcussions from this? I’m not commenting on whether it’s wise or not, but you know that there are no free lunches right? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/577 "2004-10-14T15:58:07Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > [http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc66.htm](http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc66.htm) Does this have all the credibility of the affair that Drudge alleged Kerry to have? Why not just cite from Rush Limbaugh’s website? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/578 "2004-10-14T15:58:31Z")
Ten dollars is nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/579 "2004-10-14T15:59:49Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > [http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc66.htm](http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc66.htm) Of course, Drudge’s facts do not support his headline but what else is new? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997/580 "2004-10-14T16:10:08Z")
Neither candidate sprouted wings or grew horns, so I’m at a loss who to give it to… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-v-kerry-round-three/268997.md?page=30)