# Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Bill **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 19, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218 "2006-07-19T19:28:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/21 "2006-07-19T22:07:21Z")
[QUOTE=Eureka] Yes, I am aware of that. It falls in my category of “two wrongs don’t make a right”. (See also my response to **Miller**. I never claimed to have all the answers–not all the right ones, or especially all the popular ones. [/QUOTE] But surely, while the oppurtunity is there, it’s not an unreasonable thing to do? You can continue to campaign to stop the creation of these fetuses in the first place, but while they are being created, what is the harm? Is the removal of stem cells in itself an immoral act? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/22 "2006-07-19T22:14:14Z")
It would serve the bastard right if he got Alzheimer’s disease and there was no cure because of this. I wouldn’t wish Alzheimer’s on anyone, but it would be poetic justice. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/23 "2006-07-19T22:22:36Z")
**Eureka** , I also heard this story on NPR when I was driving home. I also read about IVF recently, including the number of extra embryos created and implanted. I’m not entirely thrilled about it myself, but I’ve never been in the position of desperately wanting a child of my own. Here’s my problem with Mr. Bush’s veto. We have this life which we have deliberately created. These embryos are just going to be thrown away like yesterday’s newspaper. If they’re used for stem cell research, then there’s at least a chance that, rather than being treated as a useless by-product of human desire, they might actually do some good. If we discard them as we currently do, whatever life and potential they have is lost. If we can use them, some good may come of this. By the way, I agree with **John Mace**. I don’t think Mr. Bush is doing this to score points with the Religious Right; I think he’s acting out of a sincere conviction that using these embryos is as much a destruction of and insult to life as torturing someone to death would be. (Please, no Gitmo comments.) I also disagree with his conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/24 "2006-07-19T22:25:44Z")
[QUOTE=Eureka] I’m not real keen on the whole process which creates these embryos regardless of whether they get a chance to grow up into babies, get flushed down the drain, or put to some other use. I’m not sure I want InVitro Fertilization banned, but I’m pretty sure I’d decide that maybe I just wasn’t meant to have children before I employed it myself. [/quote] Understood, and good for you. Your entitlement to make that choice for other people comes from where, exactly? > [@](#): > > So be it. There exist things that I’m not sure that we are better off knowing. Like, the cure for cancer for example? > [@](#): > > I’m not opposed to all medical research. I’m just opposed to research which seems likely to do more harm than good. If large sums of money are thrown down a whole labeled “Embryonic Stem Cell Research” while more and more embryos are created just to be used for such research, and other types of medical research are neglected, and no positive results occur, more harm than good is being done. For less extreme scenarios, it is harder to determine when the point of more harm than good take place. Cite that this will lead to more and more embryos being created? In order for that to happen, you’d have to find a) more infertile couples willing to undergo IVF (not a pleasant treatment, incidentally) _and_ giving up those embryos for stem cell research instead of for their own reproduction. Cite that all other forms of research will be neglected? You seem remarkably ill informed about how medical research works. They don’t give up other areas just because they’ve found a new method. > [@](#): > > This, to me, smacks of “but everybody else is doing it.” Not a good enough reason for Federal funding for Stem Cell Research. No, more like “This is a tremendous opportunity to benefit not only our own population, but the population of many civilized countries and make a boat load of money in the process.” What, you think research comes cheap? In case you hadn’t noticed, we don’t have a state funded health program. That means the money has to come from the private sector. That means our healthcare programs are getting worse, not better. > [@](#): > > I don’t want to sound callous or flippant. I also don’t want to start a deeply emotional discussion involving my religious beliefs, or expounding on how embryos should be treated or anything. But it bugs me when threads become pile-ons without anyone taking the minority opinion. And so, I posted. Understandable. And you don’t sound either callous or flippant. But could you expound on how it’s murder to kill something that’s already dead? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/25 "2006-07-19T22:36:26Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] THOSE EMBRYOS WERE GOING TO BE THROWN AWAY ANYWAY! What the fuck does this accomplish other than to to hinder science!?!?! [/QUOTE] > [@David Christensen](#): > > We don’t take death-row inmates and use their organs either. We should not kill humans for body parts, at any stage of development. So there is a justification for this. A justification that makes absolutely no sense to me, but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/26 "2006-07-19T22:40:09Z")
> [@Eureka](#): > > Yes, I am aware of that. It falls in my category of “two wrongs don’t make a right”. I didn’t realize curing cerebral palsy was a moral “wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/27 "2006-07-19T22:44:49Z")
> [@David Christensen](#): > > We don’t take death-row inmates and use their organs either. We should not kill humans for body parts, at any stage of development. We do, however, harvest organs from humans who are killed by other circumstances and use those organs to prolong the life of others. How is this different? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/28 "2006-07-19T22:45:44Z")
The fact that the embryos were slated to be destroyed in any case is the most nonsensical part of this ridiculousness. I can hear the chorus now: “Every sperm is sacred…” Is it November yet? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/29 "2006-07-19T22:56:19Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] THOSE EMBRYOS WERE GOING TO BE THROWN AWAY ANYWAY! [/QUOTE] I’m not necessarily supporting the veto; but, the bill encompassed more than just the embryos to which you refer. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/30 "2006-07-19T23:00:56Z")
[QUOTE=Eureka] I don’t approve of stem cell research. I wouldn’t class it as the work of the devil, but I do think that stem cell research is an example of the ends being used to justify the means and I’m deeply uncomfortable with that. [/quote] And condemning people to suffering and death in the name of being “pro-life” _isn’t_ ?! [QUOTE=Eureka] I understand that there are many people who see tremendous potential with respect to Stem Cell Research and many major nasty diseases. I am not at all sure that Stem Cell Research will ever live up to its hype. [/QUOTE] And if we don’t look, we’ll never know. Your “argument” amounts to a demand for the end of all science. [QUOTE=Eureka] So be it. There exist things that I’m not sure that we are better off knowing. [/quote] “Ignorance is bliss” ? Ignorance is not a virtue. [QUOTE=Eureka] If large sums of money are thrown down a whole labeled “Embryonic Stem Cell Research” while more and more embryos are created just to be used for such research, and other types of medical research are neglected, and no positive results occur, more harm than good is being done. For less extreme scenarios, it is harder to determine when the point of more harm than good take place. [/QUOTE] :dubious: And how is this “extreme” ? Your arguement, again, can be used against any and all research. [QUOTE=Eureka] I don’t want to sound callous or flippant. [/QUOTE] Well, you failed. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/31 "2006-07-19T23:04:49Z")
[QUOTE=Mince] I’m not necessarily supporting the veto; but, the bill encompassed more than just the embryos to which you refer. [/QUOTE] Does anyone have a link to the text of the bill? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/32 "2006-07-19T23:05:13Z")
[QUOTE=Mince] I’m not necessarily supporting the veto; but, the bill encompassed more than just the embryos to which you refer. [/QUOTE] Are you certain? Bill H.R. 810 > [@](#): > > `(b) Ethical Requirements- Human embryonic stem cells shall be eligible for use in any research conducted or supported by the Secretary if the cells meet each of the following: > > `(1) The stem cells were derived from human embryos that have been donated from in vitro fertilization clinics, were created for the purposes of fertility treatment, and were in excess of the clinical need of the individuals seeking such treatment. > > `(2) Prior to the consideration of embryo donation and through consultation with the individuals seeking fertility treatment, it was determined that the embryos would never be implanted in a woman **and would otherwise be discarded**. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/33 "2006-07-19T23:06:21Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] Does anyone have a link to the text of the bill? [/QUOTE] Yes, which I should have put in my earlier post. :smack: Here; [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:5:./temp/~c109VweG2E::](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:5:./temp/~c109VweG2E::) I should also say that the bolding in my earlier post was by me. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/34 "2006-07-19T23:08:05Z")
From a quick view of some conservative blogs, those who support the veto seem to be taking two tacks: 1. Calling the bill the “embryo-destroying” bill (apparent effort to cast it as tantamount to abortion). 2. Calling the bill “pork.” Now, #2 may well be true, for all I know, but that wasn’t the stated reason for the veto, now was it? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/35 "2006-07-19T23:21:46Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Yes, which I should have put in my earlier post. :smack: Here; [http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:5:./temp/~c109VweG2E::](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:5:./temp/~c109VweG2E::) I should also say that the bolding in my earlier post was by me. [/QUOTE] Hm. **Mince** , it seems that the only thing that bill addresses is embryos specifically harvested for IVT. Maybe you were thinking of one of the other two bills on this subject? ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/36 "2006-07-20T00:02:23Z")
[QUOTE=Eureka] So be it. There exist things that I’m not sure that we are better off knowing. [/QUOTE] You’re afraid of learning? ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/37 "2006-07-20T00:24:24Z")
[QUOTE=Siege] By the way, I agree with **John Mace**. I don’t think Mr. Bush is doing this to score points with the Religious Right; I think he’s acting out of a sincere conviction that using these embryos is as much a destruction of and insult to life as torturing someone to death would be. (Please, no Gitmo comments.) I also disagree with his conviction. [/QUOTE] If that is his sincere conviction, he’s arrived at it in a half-assed fashion. If stem cell research is so morally reprehensible, why was Bush willing in 2001 to allow some federal funding for embryonic research on the stem cell lines that had already been created? I think the Religious Right is only slightly pleased with his veto. What many of them want is a complete and total ban on _all_ public or private embryonic stem cell research. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/38 "2006-07-20T01:04:13Z")
Warning: We are about at the limit of my comfort zone. I’m not feeling inclined to quit reading the thread, as yet, but I may decide to quit responding to questions or comments directed towards me. > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > But surely, while the oppurtunity is there, it’s not an unreasonable thing to do? You can continue to campaign to stop the creation of these fetuses in the first place, but while they are being created, what is the harm? Is the removal of stem cells in itself an immoral act? I can’t detail for you a specific “harm” caused by stem cell research. I’m deeply, deeply, uncomfortable with the "Well, they’re there, why not use them"attitude towards embryos that your post (and others) seem to support. I’m not sure, but I lean very heavily towards “yes, the removal of stem cells is in itself an immoral act.”. **Siege** , I don’t want you to think that I didn’t read your post. I did, and I appreciate your viewpoint, and I do not agree. I understand the emotional pull of maybe someday this research could do some good, but I’m just not sold. > [@Maureen](#): > > Understood, and good for you. Your entitlement to make that choice for other people comes from where, exactly? I am a Christian, and I am NOT a believer in moral relativism. Therefore, if something is wrong for me, it is wrong for everyone, and I am obligated to discourage others from doing the wrong thing. > [@Maureen](#): > > Like, the cure for cancer for example? If the cure for cancer is anything like present treatments for cancer, maybe. Seriously, my mother had cancer, and because it was caught in the early stages, she suffered far more from the surgery and the chemotherapy than she did from the tumor. I’m not claiming this is the norm, but there certainly do exist cases where I have to wonder whether spending the last 6 months of one’s life being treated for cancer is better than spending the first 6 weeks of that time dying, and then having the ordeal be over. > [@Maureen](#): > > Cite that this will lead to more and more embryos being created? No cite available. It comes straight from the “what’s the worst that could happen” file in my brain. > [@Maureen](#): > > But could you expound on how it’s murder to kill something that’s already dead? Nope. 'Cause I don’t see that that’s true. I’m also not sure where I’ve used the word “murder”. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/39 "2006-07-20T01:18:27Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] Hm. **Mince** , it seems that the only thing that bill addresses is embryos specifically harvested for IVT. Maybe you were thinking of one of the other two bills on this subject? [/QUOTE] Yeah, ok. I missed it. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218/40 "2006-07-20T01:23:36Z")
[Seven pages of political cartoons](http://www.cagle.com/news/StemCells06/main.asp). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-vetoes-stem-cell-bill/365218.md?page=3)