# Bush wants end to UN Sanctions of Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458 "2003-04-18T01:57:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/21 "2003-04-18T05:29:19Z")
Democracy! Whiskey! Sexy! ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/22 "2003-04-18T05:47:01Z")
Not necessarily in that order. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/23 "2003-04-18T06:03:35Z")
So… we’re preferring that oil companies NOT buy the oil in Iraq? This helps out Joe Iraqi how? ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/24 "2003-04-18T15:31:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\*So… we’re preferring that oil companies NOT buy the oil in Iraq? This helps out Joe Iraqi how? \*\* Right now there would appear to be a very good mechanism for the sale of Iraqi oil, the OfF programme. No one objects to the sale of Iraqi oil, even to American oil companies. But how does Joe Iraqi get paid for this oil? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/25 "2003-04-18T15:38:43Z")
The OfF program(me) has to end sometime. If you want to keep it going for political purposes, that’s your perogative. I still have not seen a reasoned argument for NOT ending the sanctions now. It’s not like Iraq’s oil fields are going to be handed over to Exxon. Phase out the OfF program(me) over time as the interim gov’t sets up a system for how the oil resoruces will be managed. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/26 "2003-04-18T16:11:50Z")
Actually I can see hesitation on the part of the others in the UN. After all, Iraq is still under US control. Lifting sanctions now pours money into coffers to be used/misused at the US’s discretion. It esssentially sets up Iraq as a vassal state to the US and all Iraqi foreign trade will be under US jurisdiction/control. I can see why other states would be reluctant to do that. Get an interim government set up. Let THAT government control Iraq’s finances and then lift sanctions. Until then the lifting of sanctions just pours money into coffers controlled by the US and the world has to rely on the US to keep good faith with the Iraqi people to use it for their benefit instead of, oh say, padding out a nice fat contract for a US company. I know **John Mace** thinks it would never happen, and I don’t think it’s particularly likely either, but I’d rather set up a system where such abuses are not even possible rather than trust that it simply “won’t happen.” I’m all for economic relations with Iraq post-Saddam, but as long as Iraq is essentially a puppet state of the US I can see problems. Right now they’re not even a puppet. The US controls the country directly. The Oil-For-Food program is fine with me right now because it’s not like US officials can misuse food or negotiate contracts with US firms over other firms if they would have to pay for it with food. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/27 "2003-04-18T16:32:50Z")
Here is a list of Studies and Recommendations by the Security Council regarding the impact of Sanctions on humanitarian aide. [http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/indexzer.htm](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/indexzer.htm) Keep in mind that these were done with Saddam Hussein was still in power. I dont see why the UN cannot heed their own studies and recommendations when the US is in control when it was recommendable when a despot was in power. I mean certain nations (especially France) championed the lifting of Sanctions in years past. **NOW** theyre waffling about it? I seems to me that this is a clear picture of where the Security council members’ allegiances lie. ---
**Author:** ![Creative\_Munster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Creative\_Munster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creative_Munster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/28 "2003-04-18T16:52:47Z")
X~Slayer(ALE), I don’t want to kiss your ass too much. But you are one of the few on these message boards who seems to have a clear view of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/29 "2003-04-18T18:08:45Z")
Considering the UN is completely impotent and incapable of enforcing any of its resolutions, I don’t see why it matters if they lift the sanctions or not. It seems nothing more than ceremonial. If the US wants to buy Iraqi oil, is the UN going to stop us? It couldn’t stop us from toppling Iraq’s last dictatorship, so I don’t see how it can stop us from buying its oil (or doing whatever else we feel like doing re: Iraq) and paying for it however we see fit (food, dollars, whisky). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/30 "2003-04-18T18:16:08Z")
Kalt: Different thing altogether. There was never a UN directive NOT to invade Iraq. There hasn’t been a condemnation issued, either. The sanctions are in place and anyone breaking them are doing so in full knowledge of what that means. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/31 "2003-04-18T19:00:17Z")
France and Russia are playing with fire. Both of them advocated lifting sanctions while Saddam was in power. Many of anti-war protestors advocating lifting sanctions. All made the case that sanctiions were hurting the Iraqi people. Having made that case, to refuse to lift sanctions now until they get a ‘piece of the pie’ sends several really bad messages: 1. That Iraq is a prize to be doled out 2. That the people of Iraq are pawns to be played in a geopolitical chess game. 3. That their earlier insistence on removing sanctions was not based on humanitarian needs, but on the desire to make more money. This could further weaken the U.N., further alienate France, and make the Iraqi people hostile to France and Russia (they are already, somewhat, for those country’s support of Saddam). Here’s the danger to the U.N. - so far, the U.S. has gone out of its way to stay ‘legal’. No, the war did not have U.N. sanction. But neither was there a resolution against it. The U.S. has not violated any SC resolutions. But if the U.S. breaks the sanctions, that will be another major blow to the U.N. And this time, the U.S. will have solid, humanitarian reasons for doing so. And the since the justification for the sanctions is no longer there, the U.N. will have a hard time making a moral case for its position. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/32 "2003-04-18T19:13:31Z")
Sam: I’m afraid that the idea of sanctions is just not going to make an impression on the vast majority of people, in Iraq or otherwise. I share your view about the drama unfolding between gov’ts, but I just don’t see it being of much interest to the man in the street. IIRC, sanctions don’t prevent any kind of humanitarian aid, just business dealings. Correct me if I’m wrong on that-- if I am wrong, that might give this issue a lot more traction. And I don’t believe the US will blatantly igore the sanctions if there is a big stall in the process of getting rid of them. And, to be fair, there was plenty of “politicking” by Bush et al before the war to sway things their way. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/33 "2003-04-18T20:41:47Z")
It should be acknowledged that there could be motives behind not wanting to lift sanctions while the US is wholly in control of Iraq besides wanting “a piece of the pie.” Wanting the Iraqi people to decide who gets the pieces instead of the US Administration might be a motive. I’m not saying this IS the motive, but it surely is within the realm of possibility. As to your other points, **Sam** , it would be hard to imagine a realist thinking of the Iraqi people as anything BUT pawns in the geopolitical chess game. It doesn’t matter which side is making which moves, they’re all most likely doing it for their own advancement when you strip away the rhetoric. I’d like to peel the tops off the heads of all the major players and find out how much real interest they have in the welfare of the Iraqi people but I have a feeling I’d just come away with an even lower opinion of mankind in general. “their earlier insistence on removing sanctions was not based on humanitarian needs, but on the desire to make more money” Perhaps. Or perhaps the message is that they don’t trust the US to administrate monies/goods/services gained by lifting sanctions with the best interests of the Iraqi people in mind. More possibilities could be found I’m sure. For every person on the planet this could well mean something different. It might be best to hold off on speculation about how the rest of the world may see these motions by France and Russia. We’ve got enough real dilemmas without inventing false ones. I’ve no doubt this could cause much more damage to the UN, at least in the opinion of Americans, but I’m not sure it will be “a major blow” in the opinion of the rest of the world. I too wish for a quick rebuilding and relief of the Iraqi people, but I’m not as willing to sit back and let the US run the whole show as some may be. We’ve got to get ourselves back into the international community. An international relief effort, directed by the Iraqi people, those with the most inisight into what needs to happen and where the money needs to go, seems the best option to me. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/34 "2003-04-19T17:18:44Z")
> [@](#): > > As to your other points, Sam, it would be hard to imagine a realist thinking of the Iraqi people as anything BUT pawns in the geopolitical chess game. Everybody is someone else’s pawn. the key is to make the people who control your moves think they are _your_ pawns. Besides, there is no evil in the world quite so great as good intentions. I want to point something out, though: all of you who keep harping on “Bush’s Oil Cronies” seem to forget this is likely to decrease their profits. In fact, several oil companies have said as much in recent months. Iraqi oil, after all, was going to be there, and as long as Saddam had it and wasn’t selling too much, prcies went up. Now it looks like things are going to go the other way a little. Regardless, did you expect Bush to reward French or German companies? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/35 "2003-04-19T17:25:24Z")
According to the paper today, Bush is seeking to phase out Sanctions in several steps over the next few months, keeping the OfF system in place. I think this is a good move. Let’s see if the French and Russians can manage to block that. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/36 "2003-08-01T00:50:04Z")
Hidden away at the bottom of an [AP story (7/31/03)](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20030731/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq) is this: > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Bush extended for another year trade sanctions and the freezing of Iraqi government assets. Can anyone supply more detail on what’s going on with the sanctions, and why ? ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/37 "2003-08-01T01:45:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > **there is no evil in the world quite so great as good intentions.** That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/38 "2003-08-01T02:41:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*Can anyone supply more detail on what’s going on with the sanctions, and why ? \*\* > [@](#): > > Notice Continuation of the National Emergency with Respect to Iraq > > On August 2, 1990, by Executive Order 12722, President Bush declared a national emergency with respect to Iraq pursuant to the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1701-1706) to deal with the unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States constituted by the actions and policies of the Government of Iraq – the Saddam Hussein regime. By Executive Orders 12722 of August 2, 1990, and 12724 of August 9, 1990, the President imposed trade sanctions on Iraq and blocked Iraqi government assets. Additional measures were taken with respect to this national emergency by Executive Order 13290 of March 20, 2003. Because of the continued instability in Iraq, the United States and Coalition partners’ role as the temporary authority in Iraq, and the need to ensure the establishment of a process leading to representative Iraqi self-rule, the national emergency declared on August 2, 1990, and the measures adopted on August 2 and August 9, 1990, and March 20, 2003, to deal with that emergency must continue in effect beyond August 2, 2003. Therefore, in accordance with section 202(d) of the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1622(d)), I am continuing for 1 year the national emergency with respect to Iraq. > > This notice shall be published in the Federal Register and transmitted to the Congress. > > GEORGE W. BUSH > THE WHITE HOUSE, > July 31, 2003. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/39 "2003-08-01T05:10:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*Saddam already tried that dodge, and look what it got him. No, if the new government of Iraq wants the sanctions lifted, it has to prove to the UN that it has no WMD’s. Otherwise we’re right back where we started from in re threat proliferation when the US leaves. \*\* Oh, what delicious irony here. So, are there weapons in Iraq or aren’t there? I am on record as saying “Yes”, BTW. So, what this means is that the UNSC, who fought tooth and nail against the idea that Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction, are now in a position to deny the lifting of sanctions due to the existence of weapons that they claim never existed to begin with? If they deny the lifting of sanctions there will be total and utter hell to pay. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458/40 "2003-08-01T05:53:20Z")
Weren’t the sactions on the government of Saddam Hussein, and not on Iraq? With said gov’t gone, what is the point of sanctions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-end-to-un-sanctions-of-iraq/169458.md?page=3)