# Bush wants to eliminate Perkins Loans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008 "2005-02-14T15:23:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/41 "2005-02-14T16:32:44Z")
> [@Darwin's Finch](#): > > To clarify the above a bit: > > For subsidized loans, the eligibility requirements as shown on [Salliemae.com](http://Salliemae.com) are described thus: > > The list I gave applies to unsubsidized loans. But note that neither Stafford loan type requires a credit check. I stand partially corrected. I could have sworn that I was credit checked for my own Stafford Loans (which I also got), but maybe I wasn’t. I still remain skeptical that the Stafford increases will be enough to cover what will be lost from the Perkins cut. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/42 "2005-02-14T16:33:19Z")
I don’t know why Dio thinks he should be treated like anything other than a child. Children are the type of people who try to express opinions with insults and profanities. It doesn’t take an adult or a college education to scream obsenities at the President. Grow up a little a bit and maybe you can be part of serious discussions. Otherwise just accept that fact that most rational people want nothing to do with a raving lunatic who wants to marginalize himself from the get go. As for the Perkins loan program it’s being phased out over 10 years. And in all honesty there is an excessive number of federal college aid programs. The more programs the more bureaucratic waste you will have. Trying to consolidate just makes sense economically. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/43 "2005-02-14T16:41:19Z")
That seems a bit of a reach. Can you provide some argument to justify your claim? If it **was** unconstitutional (as opposed to illegal) I feel certain that someone, somewhere, would have managed an effective challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Guy\_Incognito\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ed655f/32.png) [@Guy\_Incognito\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guy_Incognito_1)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/44 "2005-02-14T16:42:05Z")
> [@sweetfreak](#): > > Read Amendment X in the Bill of rights…here. [bill or rights](http://www.billofrights.com/) > If the people want to make the funding of public education legal, they have that right, by adding an amendment to the constitution regarding that. Otherwise, Amendment X of the original Bill or Rights stands. Read the whole constitution next time. Article I, Section 8 gives Congress the explicit authority to spend for the general welfare. This is a broad category that includes federal funding for education. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/45 "2005-02-14T16:43:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I stand partially corrected. I could have sworn that I was credit checked for my own Stafford Loans (which I also got), but maybe I wasn’t. > > I still remain skeptical that the Stafford increases will be enough to cover what will be lost from the Perkins cut. Maybe you should delete your OP until you have all the facts? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/46 "2005-02-14T16:44:04Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Shh! You’re talking to a guy who just described a conversion of loan funds to grant funds as an “ass-raping.” This can be economical, though. **Diogenes** can turn on C-SPAN and catch an episode of “Oz”, in his fevered brain. The rest of us have to buy the whole HBO package. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/47 "2005-02-14T16:45:11Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Maybe you should delete your OP until you have all the facts? I have the power to delete threads? Did somebody give me mod powers over night? Naww…I think I have as many facts as I need. I said ass-rape, I meant ass-rape. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/48 "2005-02-14T17:03:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Spoken like a true libertarian sociopath. Nah, if that were true, I wouldn’t even want MN to pay for those college students. Thanks for calling me a “sociopath”, though. Just goes to show what everyone here is saying-- you love to dish it out, but you cry like a baby when it comes your way. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/49 "2005-02-14T17:06:01Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Naww…I think I have as many facts as I need. I suggest you adopt this as your sig. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/50 "2005-02-14T17:10:51Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Just goes to show what everyone here is saying-- you love to dish it out, but you cry like a baby when it comes your way. Given his fondness for the phrase “ass-rape,” might the “squeel like a pig” simile be preferred over “cry like a baby”? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/51 "2005-02-14T19:37:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Apparently Bush thinks he needs to make a greater effort to buttfuck poor people in his second term. He now wants to [eliminate Perkins Loans](http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2005/02/08/63128) for no real reason I can fathom other than he’s an evil, elitist little fuck with no ethical core. Without thePerkins program I could not have gone to college. Without the Perkins program, a _lot_ of lower middle class and poor kids cannot go to college. While I appreciate that a lot of people are bothered by the loss of a loan program, please allow me to note that the 5% fixed rate of Perkins loans is actually far _worse_ than current rates for Stafford loans, and the Perkins program costs more to administer. Because Perkins loans are required to be underwritten by the **school** instead of private lenders, they’re also harder to manage for many smaller institutions. Very few people get Perkins loans (I never got one in my entire undergraduate career despite having zeros for financial contribution on virtually every FAFSA I filed); cancelling the program, even without an increase in the Stafford program, is not going to cut a lot of anybody out of going to college. I don’t see any real harm in dropping the program as long as a compensatory increase in the Stafford program is made. ---
**Author:** ![sweetfreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@sweetfreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweetfreak)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/52 "2005-02-14T20:05:14Z")
> [@Guy\_Incognito](#): > > Read the whole constitution next time. Article I, Section 8 gives Congress the explicit authority to spend for the general welfare. This is a broad category that includes federal funding for education. Let’s see…you re-worded what that section of the constitution states to fit what you want it to mean. I quote: “to provide for the common defense and general welfare” It does not say it will _spend_ for the general welfare. It will _provide_. You are using the definition of welfare that fits what you want to believe, not as it was written. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/53 "2005-02-14T20:06:57Z")
As soon as you figure out how to provide something without spending any money to do it, let us know. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/54 "2005-02-14T20:11:19Z")
> [@](#): > > **Cheesesteak** said: > The article mentioned that the Stafford Loan program will be expanded, is this not going to pick up the slack for getting rid of Perkins? I know I did a hell of a lot better with Staffords than with Perkins. I got better interest rates, more money, and a lot less hassle consolidating when I graduated. If the cut in Perkins is matched with an increase to the Stafford program, that’d be fine as I see it. I was also no longer elligible for the Perkins once I’d changed my major and was in engineering instead of the pre-med neuroscience major. And Pell Grants, those were a life saver. Even if he increased those by doing away with Perkins, that’d be wonderful for those students who are determined by the FAFSA to be in need of help paying for college. > [@](#): > > **Metacom** said: > Clothahump, from what I understand, the reason that it serves fewer students is because it targets a different group–those whose families don’t have a good credit history. Then how’d I end up with one considering that my credit score and my parents’ were both in the ‘perfect’ range? I got Staffords every year I was in school, too. > [@](#): > > **KellyM** said: > While I appreciate that a lot of people are bothered by the loss of a loan program, please allow me to note that the 5% fixed rate of Perkins loans is actually far worse than current rates for Stafford loans, I consolidated my Staffords and ended up with an interest rate of 4.25%. The quarter percent was knocked off if I agreed to pay online. This works out well for me considering I was repaying over 20K$ for 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/55 "2005-02-14T20:16:14Z")
> [@sweetfreak](#): > > It does not say it will _spend_ for the general welfare. It will _provide_. You are using the definition of welfare that fits what you want to believe, not as it was written. Is this an example of the _thinking_ you spoke of earlier? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/56 "2005-02-14T20:27:40Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Naww…I think I have as many facts as I need. I said ass-rape, I meant ass-rape. Honestly, man, this sort of attitude only supports the view that you are a knee-jerk Bush hater, all sizzle, no steak. Even if the facts make this out as nothing more than a neutral (or positive) administrative change, harming nobody, you still want to call it ass raping, because Bush proposed it. Your lack of interest in the facts makes your positions on topics like this weak. Why should anyone give a crap about your opinion, when it’s always whatever Bush doesn’t want? ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/57 "2005-02-14T20:31:30Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I consolidated my Staffords and ended up with an interest rate of 4.25%. The quarter percent was knocked off if I agreed to pay online. This works out well for me considering I was repaying over 20K$ for 10 years. My Ford loans (which are, in effect, Staffords, except that they’re underwritten directly by the Government rather than by a private lender) are currently being charged between 3.12% and 3.92%. Compared to a fixed 5% rate, that’s a major win. The deferral, forbearance, and cancellation provisions for Staffords (and Fords) are also much better than with most Perkins loans. Frankly, I wouldn’t want one even if it were offered to me unless it was the only way to get enough funding. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/58 "2005-02-14T20:32:04Z")
Before we all jump on Dio too much, he is correct when he says that Perkins are better designed for the poor than their Stafford alternatives. First, Stafford Loans have origination and guarantee fees, which amount to 4% of the loan value. This is paid up front (it’s usually taken out of the money disbursed). Secondly, Dependent Stafford Loans have a lower maximum amount, with the assumption that the parents are paying for the rest. Independent Stafford Loans have a higher maximum, but are not available to your typical poor student who is fresh out of high school. So, poor people have to come up with both the difference between tuition and the maximum loan amount, and also the fees, both upfront. So, removing the Perkins loans hurts poor people, and additions to the Stafford program do not address all of the issues from what I’ve seen cited. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/59 "2005-02-14T21:51:08Z")
Hey, I got a Perkins loan! What amazes me is that Bush had the nerve to say he was helping the poor go to college in his state of the union adress. I feel like America must be living some serious cognative dissonance because the more Bush does the opposite of what he tells us he’s doing, the more we like him. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008/60 "2005-02-15T01:14:07Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Secondly, Dependent Stafford Loans have a lower maximum amount, with the assumption that the parents are paying for the rest. Independent Stafford Loans have a higher maximum, but are not available to your typical poor student who is fresh out of high school. Only unsubsidized Stafford loans have varying loan amounts by dependency status. And unsubsidized Staffords aren’t need-based, so these aren’t the ones that the poorer students are typically going to be applying for (except as additional loans, since one can obtain both a subsidized and an unsubsidized loan). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wants-to-eliminate-perkins-loans/290008.md?page=4)