Bush wants to scrap ABA review of judicial appointments

My my, turn around for a day or so and look what an interesting discussion we have - thanks, Gadarene, for the quote about poor old Douglas fighting the last war.

Sua, I still disagree with you about precedent, at least over socially controversial matters. I guess the distinction I would make would run along the lines of mala prohibita versus mala in se*. When courts are establishing rules because a rule is needed (but the content of the rule is less important), then precedent is both at its most necessary and most valuable. When, however, the courts inevitably are drawn into highly charged, moral discussions, “precedent” becomes a hypocritical exercise - particularly when it’s used to defend a newly-discovered right, which it seems all of the concurring Griswold justices well knew they were doing.

If we agree that the Constitution must “breathe” (which I think any 214-year-old document requires), then it must be able (block this metaphor!) both to inhale and to exhale. Sometimes the Court will find new rights - but other times it should be able to say “Ooops, that was a mistake” - even when the change of mind is simply the product of a change of heads dwelling thereon. The alternative (block this metaphor, too!) is a one-way ratchet, in which new rights can be discovered, but never undiscovered. With that, we’d never have got rid of Lochner.

Actually, I lied. The other “alternative” is for the court simply to throw up its hands. That’s the solution deduced from emarkp’s (and the unconfirmed-and-ever-more-bitter-by-the-minute) Bork’s criticisms. These criticisms are at best ahistoric. Within the Anglo-American tradition, judges have always made law. (Under the Common Law, judge-made law was really all that existed - statutes served to nip and tuck judicial decisions, rather than the other way 'round.) After the Revolutionary War there was a movement to limit these powers, but the lawyers and judges won. Part of the reason (besides the obvious one of Who’s Got the Power) stems from the practicalities of dealing with laws - they never envision all possible situations, and judges don’t have the luxury of sitting around waiting for legislatures to fill in the gaps. Not when there are live litigants right there in front of them. So that means judges do the best with what they’ve got in legislative history, and often what’s available is either (a) nothing at all, (b) quite incomplete, or © enormously self-serving. (Scalia’s become quite annoyed at recent statutes, with these congressional “reports” and “findings” that sometimes directly contradict the actual words of the statute they inform, and all designed to spin the Court.)

But what about original intent? This is the great Friend of Bork, et al. and at best it’s a red herring, raising more questions than it answers (indeed, there decent argument - from an article published roughly 1983, can’t find it online - arguing that the Founders didn’t intend for anyone to pay attention to their “original inten”). Whose intent? The Founders? The state conventions? What if you can’t really find very much? Etc. The enormous irony is that theorists like Scalia, while rejecting the legislative history of statutes written in 1990, is nevertheless willing to afford all deference to the scattered reports written by a very few observers of constitutional conventions taking place two centuries ago. And, as we all know, spin is a purely modern invention :rolleyes: - I can think of at least three-fifths of a reason why the Founders weren’t, perhaps, overly eager to have all of their deliberations recorded for posterity.

The great progenitor of “originalism” was Raoul Berger, of the University of Chicago. I read his work when I was in law school, and what struck me was his admission that the theory wasn’t particularly consistent or verifiable. Instead, the main argument in its favor, in his view, was that it would restrain judges that otherwise face no restraint. I sympathise with his concerns, but ultimately I think he and his followers (such as Bork) are trying to re-fight a battle lost by 1820. Judges do have enormous powers and they aren’t restrained except by political limitations. And that, I think, is as it should be, and we’d be better off simply acknowledging it, rather than cloaking power in the emperor’s new clothes of precedent or original intent.

*Mala prohibita roughly means “something that’s wrong because it’s prohibited,” whereas “mala in se” means “inherently wrong.” Traffic rules are the easiest example of the former: in the U.S., driving on the left side isn’t inherently wrong, it’s wrong because it’s prohibited - we need a rule, and we don’t care much about what the rule is. Murder, of course, is the ultimate mala in se. And yes, it often isn’t clear where one concept begins and the other ends, but it’s good enough for the purposes of this discussion, I think.

Oh dear, wordy and ungrammatical! There’s a laywer for ya.

That should say “a theorist like Scalia”…

sigh.

I threw out NO ASSUMPTIONS. I guess I was being vague again. The fact is, somehow I was just stupid and uninformed enough to assume that the ABA was relatively neutral! Or that given the fact it was populated by lawyers and judges at least had a healthy political balance. Actually until this debate I had let it slip my mind that most politicians were lawyers. Really silly of me huh, or at least naive? Even so I still find it very hard to believe the standard cry of evil, liberal bias. Especially given that the rest of the country is pretty much equally divided politically. Perhaps I’m assuming wrong, but does it defy logic to surmise that an organization with as many members as the ABA would be similarily inclined?

Needs2know

Oh and BTW…coming from a non-lawyer and directly addressing the OP. Given that judicial review by the ABA is not mandated but simply a practice…For someone like me it would have sounded better for Mr. Bush to say that he was scrapping the review because it was ponderous and unneccesary rather than bringing out the tired “liberal bias” excuse. Correct me here if you don’t agree but since the ABA has no mandate and their findings are often ignored anyway, why incite this kind of debate in the first place? Wouldn’t it have been more politically neutral just to give another excuse? If we can agree that the ABA is not necessarily overtly liberal then this accusation is not only a matter of skewed perception based on one or two appointments it’s just down right inflamatory.

Am I wrong to think that if I’m a member of the ABA I should take issue with the accusation that I am biased and not simply sworn to uphold the law, regardless of it’s political lean? Am I just naive or hasn’t the President just insulted a very powerful and respected institution? (Not that it’s an insult to be liberal, but to be biased.)

Needs2know

Oh and BTW…coming from a non-lawyer and directly addressing the OP. Given that judicial review by the ABA is not mandated but simply a practice…For someone like me it would have sounded better for Mr. Bush to say that he was scrapping the review because it was ponderous and unneccesary rather than bringing out the tired “liberal bias” excuse. Correct me here if you don’t agree but since the ABA has no mandate and their findings are often ignored anyway, why incite this kind of debate in the first place? Wouldn’t it have been more politically neutral just to give another excuse? If we can agree that the ABA is not necessarily overtly liberal then this accusation is not only a matter of skewed perception based on one or two appointments it’s just down right inflamatory.

Am I wrong to think that if I’m a member of the ABA I should take issue with the accusation that I am biased and not simply sworn to uphold the law, regardless of it’s political lean? Am I just naive or hasn’t the President just insulted a very powerful and respected institution? (Not that it’s an insult to be liberal, but to be biased.) (Oh and BTW…if John Ashcroft can be trusted to be unbiased and uphold the law why can’t the organization of which he is certainly a member be expected to do the same?)

Needs2know

Huh? The real reason for Bush scrapping the system is because of the bias. You seem to be saying that he sought not say the true reason, but instead should give the one that sounds better. :confused:

I don’t think he is saying that every lawyer is biased or liberal, merely that the ABA committees are.

BTW, I don’t think it is an insult to be biased. Everyone is biased. The issue is whether the ABA is rating on purely profession, non-ideological grounds, under which their bias (such as it is) would not be as much of a factor, or if they include ideology in their criteria. Apparently the ABA as a whole has become more of an ideological institution in recent years, and their rating criteria are thought to reflect that. Read Orrin Hatch’s statements in the link provided by SuaSponte for a discussion of this matter.

I wonder if someone would address the issue of the liberal positions taken by the ABA on public policy issues. How has this come about. Sua has suggested that lawyers in general are not a particularly liberal bunch, and I would have assumed the same. (In fact, even plaintiff’s attorneys might not be particularly liberal, but might simply be heavily committed to the Democratic Party due to their overriding concern with their particular special interest. Legal Aid lawyers are thought to be overwhelmingly liberal, however). So how did this circumstance come about?

Well, do you have any particular examples? It strikes me that perhaps the “liberal positions” taken are simply those of standing legal precedent. That is, Roe and Miranda are viewed unfavorably by many conservatives, yet they are constitutional doctrine. It may be (warning: speculation ahead) that representatives of the American Bar Association has reaffirmed its commitment to current precedent–including that concerning abortion and civil liberties–when pressed by outside agents. Does that make any sense?

According to Orrin Hatch (in the link provided earlier by Sua)

Now here’s the significant point. One could see the ABA taking a position regarding how existing law should be interpreted. I understood Hatch to be saying that they are taking a position regarding legislative issues that were before the Congress. If this is true (and I hope someone can refute or confirm this) then they are a political lobbying group with an agenda that goes beyond their capacity of professional organization.

But even if they are taking positions regarding legal interpretation, if they consistently adopt the position more favored by liberals, then to the extent that these positions are not the overwhelming consensus within the profession it is still fair to say that they are biased.

Perhaps some of our lawyers are more familiar with the details of this particular aspect.

What I’m saying is that perhaps by clarifying what existing law is–as in “that flag desecration bill up for vote is probably unconstitutional given the findings in Texas v. Johnson, which is the controlling legal standard on this issue”–the ABA gets branded as pushing a particular agenda. The fact is that there are certain standing precedents right now which are viewed as “liberal”; I mentioned Roe and Miranda, and there’s Bakke for affirmative action and Lemon for Establishment Clause issues, among others. Is the ABA “lobbying” if they clarify controlling doctrine (on these and any other case law) for Congress, with respect to a proposed bill or act?

I’m not even talking about contemporary interpretation. For example, I’d say that lawyers–and everyone, really–divides up into pretty much three camps when it comes to abortion and Roe. The first camp recognizes thatRoe sanctions abortion as a matter of law, and agrees with the reasoning behind the decision. The second recognizes thatRoe sanctions abortion as a matter of law, disagrees with the reasoning behind the decision, yet accepts it as legitimate legal precedent. The third camp recognizes thatRoe sanctions abortion as a matter of law, yet not only disagrees with the reasoning behind the decision, but questions its validity as precedent and feels that the decision should be overturned. That is, no matter your ideological bent, you must realize that Roe is, for the moment, the last legal word on abortion. So if a bill comes up before Congress which bans abortion in the District of Columbia, a representative of the ABA could say, “given Roe, this bill won’t fly legally” taking any position of advocacy other than relaying the state of legal doctrine on the matter. Yet at the same time, I can see Orrin Hatch lambasting that hypothetical ABA member as pushing a liberal agenda.

To sum up: Insofar as certain legal precedents are more “liberal” than others, I’d say that the ABA can only be said to be pushing liberal positions if they are advocating stances on issues which are counter to, and more liberal than, controlling doctrine in that area. Make sense?

The penultimate sentence in the second paragraph should read,

Left out an important word there.

I can’t. Orrin Hatch is a former judge, and not a moron. Which is what he would be if he considered stating that “X is unconstitutional” to be bias, in an instance in which all sides agreed that it is (unconstitutional). Frankly I doubt if there are so many proposed bills that are incontrovertably uncontitutional for the ABA to be taking legal positions on so many issues. But this is all theoretical. I shall wait until someone turns up who actually knows.

Thanks Gad…makes perfect sense to me and what I was thinking but not well versed enough or articulate to express. Kind of goes back to my little comment about Ashcroft. The objection to his appointment was not only a matter of ideology but the fact that he had the appearance of ignoring certain legislation on occasion in favor of his own adgenda. He and all of his supporters didn’t like the speculation that he might not UPHOLD THE LAW, whether it fell in line with his ideology or not. Isn’t this pretty much a similar issue? Other than the fact that the ABA must certainly be a diverse enough group as to have members of liberal, moderate, conservative, and all those far left, right and in between, wouldn’t it be an insult to insist that the ENTIRE organization is leaning one way regardless of the law? Or that they as a group are attempting to further some liberal adgenda that would benefit them in some way and pervert the rule of law? Am I making any sense here at all, or am I just thick?

Needs2know

If Bush had announced he was scrapping the ABA review process because it was “ponderous and unnecessary”, people would (rightly) have been all over him for evading his dominant reason - right-of-center politicians’ mistrust of the organization’s ideological bent. Mentioning concerns about bias is relatively honest, even though I’m not convinced that the ABA’s track record shows that its subjective judgments outweigh its usefulness in vetting judicial candidates.

Nope.

Legal opinion does not become enshrined as mainstream just because a higher court issued it. “Controlling doctrine” (or Controlling Legal Authority as Al prefers it) is constantly in flux and may run counter to most Americans’ views. Therefore Orrin Hatch and his friends can make an argument that the ABA is out of step with the voters, even if it’s backing “established” precedents.

Though I’d still like to hear details on which good judges were blackballed and which turkeys were confirmed, based on unquestioning Senate acceptance of ABA recommendations.

Ok then next question…So all that is really needed by Mr.Bush and other conservatives is the “perception” that the ABA is leaning to the left and then what? I take it that these appoinments are proposed by the Prez (like the last minute Clinton proposal in my district here, Richmond, VA) and then they have to pass the Senate? Not every Senator is an X lawyer or a judge right? Does this in any way hinder their ability to make a qualified decision on how to vote? I’m curious as to exactly what Mr. Bush is trying to avoid. Let’s face it, judicial review or not if he decides to appoint some right wing nut job to an important spot then the “liberals” are gonna raise a hue and cry anyway. Aren’t they?

Needs2know

I’ll second that motion. I don’t much care what Orrin Hatch (who is, after all, a politician these days, not a judge) cares about the ABA’s political positions. Unless somebody can show me political bias in their evaluations of potential judicial nominees, I’m chalking this one up to the usual Republican paranoia about liberals controlling the media or the banks or the Trilateral Commission or whatever.

Thank you Minty…I second that emotion. I know you are a lawyer and I’m not but I have to agree. Believe it or not I might be one of the few people left that believes if one devotes the time, effort, and money to study law and actually pass the bar then you should love and respect it with every fiber of your being. And I’m still naive enough to hang onto the notion that most lawyers do. (I feel the same way about doctors and their commitment to medicine.) If I were a member of the bar this new proclamation by the Bush administration would kinda piss me off. To even suggest that the entire ABA would not be honest and above board in their dealings is insulting. To suggest that they would lowball one of their own because of some liberal conspiracy is to my way of thinking ridiculous.

Can you answer the question from my above post? I think you already have, this new decision could be a potential detriment to the judicial process. I believe you stated that in your first post.

Needs2know

ABA pre-screening is officially dead.

Man, those Republicans sure do hold grudges a long time. It’s been 14 years since Bork went down in flames. In five of those years, the Republicans held the White House and could have ended ABA review. Now that I think about it, though I can’t decide whether they hold really long grudges or are just incredibly indecisive. :smiley:

N2K: Yep, I think my first post answers the question of how I feel about it.

Maybe the ABA was once focused on professionalism. They could have provided a useful service in vetting judicial nominees for competence. Today’s ABA focuses on other issues, such as the death penalty and abortion rights, not to mention tort refrom, which takes money out of lawyers’ pockets.

That sort of change occurred in three organizations I used to belong to. I was a founding member of Common Cause. it was set up by John Gardiner, a liberal Republican, to fight corruption. Over the years, it mutated into more of a standard liberal interest group.

I was a long-time member of the NAACP, when its goal was the advancement of African-Americans. Today, they oppose Clarence Thomas and oppose school vouchers. They have become an adjunct of the Democratic Party.

Even the American Contract Bridge League became political. During the furor over Colorado’s ballot proposition banning affirmative action for sexual preference, the ACBL Board of Directors joined a boycott to hold no conventions in Colorado. This was a pretty common position. Still, it’s noteworthy that that the Board never contacted the membership for input, even though they hadn’t been elected to take positions on gay rights.

So, at one time it was probably a good idea to use the ABA for vetting judges, and it’s probably right to stop using them today.

As has been pointed out, the ABA is a lobbying organization. They have an agenda that they advocate. I believe that agenda is, if not really liberal, at least more in line with the Democratic Party. This is where the claims of liberal bias come from. This reason is why posters like SuaSponte are actually agreeing with the result, if not entirely with Bush’s reasoning.

I’m not even sure that Bush has made the claim that the ABA has ever acted inappropriately in vetting judges, just that it is rather wrong to give an advocacy group a special role in selecting judges. As I see it, it’s a perfectly legitimate move to make, but it does make you wonder if the administration is planning on nominating some judges who wouldn’t survive the scrutiny.