# Bush wins! Again! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2001, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906 "2001-02-26T08:21:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/21 "2001-02-26T17:36:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > It’d be interesting to see the congress investigating the supreme courts motives in their ruling as closely as they are looking at president Clintons. The evidence of criminal wrongdoing seems much cleaner in the case of the high court. The congress still had the right to challenge the Electors from Florida, but they didn’t. But I suppose all 100 senators (including Teddy) were part of this vast right wing conspiracy too, right? :rolleyes: BTW, you can’t steal something that is rightfully yours. Do a search in the Catholic Catechism on “universal destination.” ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/22 "2001-02-26T18:04:27Z")
The election was rigged every way it could have been. Predominantly Democratic counties were given voting machines with 5 times the error rate of the optical scanning machines used in primarily Republican counties. The election was rigged before, during, and after the election. [ul][li]Before, when over 17,000 absentee ballots were sent to people who didn’t request them.[/li][li]Before, when Martin County election supervisor Sandra Goard admitted GOP operatives to come into her office for days on end to fill out missing information on Republican absentee ballot forms so they would qualify.[/li][li]During, when people who could reasonably be expected to vote Democratic were turned away, or harrassed by police. During, when a computer error gave a Socialist Party candidate 9,888 votes in Volusia County, when he got only 583 in the rest of the state.[/li][li]During, when many Black voters who had registered to vote at the DMV were not on the rolls at the polling places. Laptops that could have corrected this were not distributed to heavily Black areas of Miami-Dade or Tampa.[/li][li]After, by busing in a Republican mob to harras the recount process. This follows precedent set by supporters of Mussolini, Hitler, and Pinochet.[/li][li]After, by the Republicans on the Supreme Court running out the clock on the game.[/ul][/li]You may be comfortable with the fact that Bush is in the office, but you know that this election was stolen. You may think it was worth stealing, and the end justifies the means. You don’t have to tell another soul, but you know. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/23 "2001-02-26T18:20:49Z")
Did you have to invoke Godwin’s Law on a thread that only opened, this morning? I suspect that you have legitimate grivances regarding most (not all) of your “before” and “during” issues. Your “after” issues are simply rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/24 "2001-02-26T18:27:50Z")
If Bush had lost, I would have stopped whining about it by now. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/25 "2001-02-26T18:37:33Z")
The counties were not “given” less accurate voting machines. Each county obtained its own voting machines. Whatever “fixing” was done there was done by the Democrats on the Elections Canvassing Boards in those counties. As a matter of fact, the number of mistakes and irregularities that were caused by Democrats would seem to indicate that these sorts of things are simply normal errors that achieve significance after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/26 "2001-02-26T18:44:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PeeQueue \* > \*\*I don’t understand how people can continue to say that Bush is a thief and that Gore should have won when there has yet to be any single count ever that showed that Gore won Florida, and countless counts that Bush won. > > PeeQueue > \*\* Well, if you really don’t understand this viewpoint, I have to condlude that you didn’t read my post, “I still do not understand all the emphisis on counting the votes.” It’s the 6th post in this thread. Personally, I don’t understand how anyone can think Bush was the rightful winner. It seems plain that if FL had managed to have an honest, competent election, Gore would have won. As I said in my earlier post, it wasn’t a situation that could be resolved just by recounting the votes that were cast, the important problems involved votes that were never cast, and votes that were cast incorrectly. There was cheating (disenfanchizing voters), and there were honest mistakes, such as the West Palm Beach ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/27 "2001-02-26T18:54:26Z")
…And if they handed out more cigarettes and gotten more buses than Gore surely would have won. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/28 "2001-02-26T18:57:59Z")
…And maybe we could have prematurely announced that Gore had won in Florida while the polls were still open to dissuade the Republican vote **Who do you think you’re fooling?** ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/29 "2001-02-26T18:58:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Screwtape \* > \*\*The election was rigged every way it could have been. Predominantly Democratic counties were given voting machines with 5 times the error rate of the optical scanning machines used in primarily Republican counties. \*\* Are you aware that these Democrat counties _themselves_ selected their voting machines? Or do you somehow believe that the Republican party surreptiously and conspiratorily made these selections on their behalf? Tell us now. Which of these two scenarios _really_ happened? ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/30 "2001-02-26T19:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > \*\*Yeah, but Gore would have won if people’s hopes and dreams were measured instead of their votes. It appears that Bush will likely be discovered to be the winner if any acceptable standards are used to recount the votes. Statistical analysis may show that voter error helped Bush, and that it is likely that Gore should be awarded a chunk of the double votes and Buchanen votes, etc. However, there has never been any provision in the law to determine a voter’s intent through any means other than looking at their ballot. > > (snip) > > \*\* I think Florida’s results should have been tossed out and the election decided on the basis of the results in the other 49 states. There were two differet grounds for doing this. Florida’s results could have been tossed on the grounds that their election was tainted by both incompetence and cheating. Or, Florida’s results could have been tossed on the grounds that, as Tranquilis has been pointing out, it was impossible to determine who the winner was. Six million votes were cast in FL; the official count had Bush winning by 537 votes. That’s 1/100 of one percent. Even in an honest, competently run election, the counting error is greater then 1/100 of one percent! Especially if the notoriously high-error-rate punchcard ballots are used. The official results were a tie. No recount of the votes cast could possibly have resolved this. IMO, if FL’s results were tossed out, the number of electoral votes needed to win would automatically be reduced by 25. That would have made Gore the winner. The electoral vote winner and the popular vote winner would have been one and the same, as is usually the case. If it was decided that tossing a state does not reduce the number of electoral votes needed for victory, then the election would have landed in Congress. Congress would probably have given it to Bush. That would have been more acceptable then what did happen. Better it be decided by Congress then by the Supremes, IMHO. The founders intended that disputed elections be decided by Conress, not the courts. It seems to me preferable that a disputed election decided by a large elected body then by a small appointed body. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/31 "2001-02-26T19:07:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > \*\*Yeah, but Gore would have won if people’s hopes and dreams were measured instead of their votes. It appears that Bush will likely be discovered to be the winner if any acceptable standards are used to recount the votes. Statistical analysis may show that voter error helped Bush, and that it is likely that Gore should be awarded a chunk of the double votes and Buchanen votes, etc. However, there has never been any provision in the law to determine a voter’s intent through any means other than looking at their ballot. > > (snip) > > \*\* I think Florida’s results should have been tossed out and the election decided on the basis of the results in the other 49 states. There were two different grounds for doing this. Florida’s results could have been tossed on the grounds that their election was too badly tainted by both incompetence and cheating to be valid. Or, Florida’s results could have been tossed on the grounds that, as Tranquilis has been pointing out, it was impossible to determine who the winner was. Six million votes were cast in FL; the official count had Bush winning by 537 votes. That’s 1/100 of one percent. Even in an honest, competently run election, the counting error is greater then 1/100 of one percent! Especially if the notoriously high-error-rate punchcard ballots are used. The official results were a tie. No recount of the votes cast could possibly have resolved this. IMO, if FL’s results were tossed out, the number of electoral votes needed to win would automatically be reduced by 25. That would have made Gore the winner. The electoral vote winner and the popular vote winner would have been one and the same, as is usually the case. If it was decided that tossing a state does not reduce the number of electoral votes needed for victory (I can’t see why it wouldn’t, but if), then the election would have landed in Congress. Congress would probably have given it to Bush. That would have been more acceptable then what did happen. Better it be decided by Congress then by the Supremes, IMHO. The founders intended that disputed elections be decided by Conress, not the courts. And it seems to me preferable that a disputed election decided by a large elected body then by a small appointed body. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/32 "2001-02-26T19:50:29Z")
Throwing out the Florida results might have been fair, but the necessary rewriting of the laws to allow it to happen with the results known would not have been. Point me out anything in the Constitution that would allow a state to be disenfranchised. Congress could have gotten in on the act and declared Florida’s electors invalid, and decided the issue itself, but the fact that it didn’t could be taken as a tacit approval of Florida’s electors, and it is up to Congress to decide whether or not they were valid. Basically, I don’t see how a perfect solution could have been achieved out of what happened. In order for Gore to have won, just as much wrong would have to have been done, and Republicans (well, not Scylla, he’d have stopped by now) would be just as justified in saying Gore stole the election. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/33 "2001-02-26T19:56:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I think Florida’s results should have been tossed out and the election decided on the basis of the results in the other 49 states. There were two different grounds for doing this. Talk about opening a can of worms. There were also questionable acts of integrety in Wisconson, Illinois, and New Mexico which if throw out would turn it back over to Bush. Gore could then go back to court to try to get something else over turned. From a politically pragmatic point of view, the last thing we wanted to do was do the ‘right thing’ or the ‘sensible thing’. We had to do the legal thing. How many people really want the government to decide to throw-out a state from the presidential election. How many people really want the Government to have the ability to decide what ‘we really meant to vote for’. If you start changing the rules, and making up stuff in the middle, then it sets a precident that the people in power could go around changing election laws in the middle to get the answer. It really is a great thing that this whole fight was between Dems and Reps rather than the Government vs the people, but we do have to remember that many of those rules are there to prevent us from going back to that situation. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/34 "2001-02-26T20:09:04Z")
One other quick comment. After the election there was a study to see how the old punchcard systems affected the vote. Florida was one of only about 4 states where the punchcards were used more in Democratic heavy counties. In total around the whole country Rebublican counties were much more likely to have the punchcard systems that created lost votes. Saw it on CNN so I don’t have a cite handy, but if I get a chance I’ll look. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/35 "2001-02-26T20:47:28Z")
I find it ironic that Hazel would seek to disenfranchise an entire state to accomplish her goals when she complained so bitterly only a few posts ago about “cheating” and the “disenfranchisement” of voters by Republicans. Do the votes count, or only the ones you like? ---
**Author:** ![horowitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/2acd7d/32.png) [@horowitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horowitz)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/36 "2001-02-26T21:46:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > \*\*Yeah, but Gore would have won if people’s hopes and dreams were measured instead of their votes. It appears that Bush will likely be discovered to be the winner if any acceptable standards are used to recount the votes. \*\* I really liked how you stated this. What concerned me the most during the various hand recounts was that the hopes and dreams of the canvassing boards were going to be measured. The images of the board’s members holding cards up to the light and making essentially judgement calls really bothered me as a Republican. No matter what you may think of the average Republican on the street the general feeling amongst us (or at least the ones I know) while watching hand recount coverage is that we were being screwed. Whether the canvassing boards were actually fabricating votes is unclear. People tend to see what they want to see and in most cases the boards were 2 to 1 Democrat over Republican. People who want to see faces on Mars see faces on Mars. All I am saying is that Republicans had valid fears that errors or fraud would take place as ballots were handled repeatedly. We were not in some smoky back room trying to figure out how to fix an election. This is the driving force behind legal efforts to halt recount efforts. The belief being that the lack of a system and a standard for hand recounts was unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/37 "2001-02-26T22:06:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*Bush is a thief because he had the supreme court stop the normal vote counting process and declare him the winner. Claiming that “he would have won if he hadn’t cheated” does nothing to change the fact that he cheated. > > It’d be interesting to see the congress investigating the supreme courts motives in their ruling as closely as they are looking at president Clintons. The evidence of criminal wrongdoing seems much cleaner in the case of the high court. \*\* Please explain how Bush had the Supeme Court stop the counting. I was rather under the impression that Bush (or Gore, for that matter) has no lever over the court. I’d be very interested to learn how he managed to suborn the Supreme Court. **ElvisL1ves** , per your request: [http://newarkwww.rutgers.edu/~gelobter/florida.htm](http://newarkwww.rutgers.edu/~gelobter/florida.htm) Excerpt: > [@](#): > > there is a 92.8% chance that there is statistically no difference between George Bush and Al Gore vote levels in Florida. On the other hand, slim as they are, the national results unambiguously show Gore the winner of that vote. _From a statistical perspective, choosing a winner in Florida would be like flipping a coin._ Italics added for emphasis. Be _very_ d\*mn careful when accusing me of not believing the importance of Democracy. I dedicated close to half my life to supporting the Constitution, and your comment was mighty close to a personal insult. You know in which forum _those_ belong. That having been said: Due to the anacronistic nature of the Electoral College, in the end, it was Florida that mattered. And it was a coin-toss. Consider yourself answered. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/38 "2001-02-26T22:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by horowitz \*What concerned me the most during the various hand recounts was that the hopes and dreams of the canvassing boards were going to be measured. The images of the board’s members holding cards up to the light and making essentially judgement calls really bothered me as a Republican. Why would you be bothered by the intense public scrutiny that those very images represented? Doesn’t that mean that there really WAS no wide-scale attempt to “fix” the counting? > [@](#): > > Whether the canvassing boards were actually fabricating votes is unclear. I don’t agree that it was “unclear” at all. In the absence of any credible accusation, the answer is “No”. > [@](#): > > All I am saying is that Republicans had valid fears that errors or fraud would take place as ballots were handled repeatedly. We were not in some smoky back room trying to figure out how to fix an election.\*\* Not the rank-and-file, no, but are you confident the leaders weren’t, in the face of so many stories to the contrary? Thanks for a thoughtful post, though. Unrelatedly, I have to agree with Scylla’s comments toward Hazel. Although we all wanted our chosen candidate to win, our commitment to democracy itself is more important. The overriding concern really had to be that everyone who cast a valid ballot had that ballot counted, within what was reasonably humanly possible, and that the result be respected. That clearly did not happen; it was prevented from happening for reasons we know well and that IMHO are going to continue to stink throughout history. It would be much more comforting to me to hear some statement to that effect from the Republican side beyond “Get over it, you sore losers” and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/39 "2001-02-26T22:27:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Bush is a thief because he had the supreme court stop the normal vote counting process and declare him the winner. \*\* To borrow a phrase from your favorite ex-president, it depends upon what your definition of “normal vote counting process” is, Squink. Bush was the winner under every “normal vote counting process.” The situation became a mess when statutory deadlines were changed, and certain perhaps well-intentioned, otherwise hopelessly partisan people started winging it on what constituted a vote, when the state statute was insufficient. Oh, I’m sorry. Judging from the comedy of the rest of your post, I see you weren’t serious. > [@](#): > > \*\*Or the Washington Post study of all the punch-card counties for which computer tapes were available, which showed that Gore’s name was punched on 29,000 more ‘overvote’ ballots than Bush’s was in those counties. \*\* Or don’t forget, RT, when the herd of Invisible Pink Unicorns galloped down from the sky and declared Gore the winner. We pay as much attention to IPU proclamations as we do overvotes. And I’m expected to believe that 29,000 people overvoted in a way that makes it clear that they voted for Gore? An overvote, by definition, is unclear, and isn’t a vote. I wonder what the political inclination is of the people these votes are “clear” to? > [@](#): > > \*\*Florida’s results could have been tossed on the grounds that their election was too badly tainted by both incompetence and cheating to be valid. \*\* I’m afraid I’m going to have to do my RTFirefly, Spiritus Mundi impressions here, and ask for a cite. Cheating? Where? Who? Incompetence? How about typical logistical problems that occasionally crop up during the conducting of an election - always have, always will? If you go start pulling anecdotes, I hope you will then pull the Civil Rights Commission’s review of “voting irregularities in Florida.” Please point me to their conclusions about cheating and incompetence, m’kay? And please also note that everyone who testified before the commission with an irregularity anecdote also cast their vote on Election Day. Where are the mysterious, disenfranchised hundreds or thousands who were held back from the polls from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Nov. 7? > [@](#): > > \*\*Or, Florida’s results could have been tossed on the grounds that, as Tranquilis has been pointing out, it was impossible to determine who the winner was. \*\* A. Apparently, it wasn’t quite as impossible as you think. Sorry you don’t like the result, though. B. Florida’s 6 million voters want to thank you, Hazel, for deciding that their participation in deciding the USA’s president can be discarded. Any more proclamations to make while you’re here? > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by horowitz What concerned me the most during the various hand recounts was that the hopes and dreams of the canvassing boards were going to be measured. The images of the board’s members holding cards up to the light and making essentially judgement calls really bothered me as a Republican. > > \*\*Why would you be bothered by the intense public scrutiny that those very images represented? Doesn’t that mean that there really WAS no wide-scale attempt to “fix” the counting? \*\* Yeah! Like when Palm Beach County canvassar Sue Gunzberger, a Democrat, gave every single ballot in dispute to Gore. Weren’t you comforted by that level of intense public scrutiny? So newspapers, using the most liberal of counting standards to count undervotes, indicate Bush would have won, anyway? Interesting. Amusing. Irrelevant, but interesting and amusing. That some are now talking about **overvotes** is even more interesting and amusing. I don’t know how many more times we can change the rules to help Gore here, folks. I think Bush mighta won. I’m getting indicators. Like when he sits at that desk in the Oval Office. If some had their way, we’d still be rule-bending and standard-changing, still looking for that elusive Gore angle, as we prepared to hear our State of the Union address from Acting President Dennis Hastert. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2001, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906/40 "2001-02-26T23:00:18Z")
I was trying to point out (and missed the mark by quite a bit, I note) that… \*\*It’s a freekin’ moot point! \*\* It’s essentially impossible to reconstruct the election in any kind of way to reflect what _really_ happened, so get off it! Any attempt to anylize the election requires interpretation, which by definition makes it subjective. Good statistical work can _reduce_ the level of subjectivity, but with as close a call as this one, that’s not good enough. We’ll NEVER know the true ‘Will Of The People’ on this, and all the monkeying around with the issue isn’t going to change that. Bush is, legitimately or otherwise, our President. Deal with it. Move on. “_But, wait,_” you cry, “_what about the will of the people? What about the crappy ballot design…? What about the disenfrachised…?_” To that I say: Fine. Quit wringing your hands and _do_ something about your grievances. Fix the system so it never happens again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-again/55906.md?page=3)