# 'Bush Wins': The Left's Nightmare Scenario **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287 "2003-03-14T08:06:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HackDriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@HackDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HackDriver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/1 "2003-03-14T08:06:49Z")
Liberals are running scared. A successful operation in Iraq is the last thing they want. A very revealing article about how the protests are not about “peace” and what the left intends to do if America wins and Iraq prospers in the wake of our invasion (written by a lefty). Mark LeVine writes in [www.alternet.org](http://www.alternet.org) story—\>[http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15379](http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15379) ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/2 "2003-03-14T09:14:12Z")
1. Mark LeVine is not a spokesman for “liberals” or “the left”. 2. Your remark that the protests are not about peace is unsupported by the article. In fact… 3. … the scenario he offers of “what the left intends to do if America wins” isn’t very scary at all. And, oh look, peace is the goal: > [@](#): > > At a recent teach-in I asked students at my campus what they would suggest the antiwar movement do in the “Bush Wins” scenario, and received numerous insightful suggestions. While some, such as engaging in a massive education drive coupled with stepped up civil disobedience, are also being planned by the movement at large, **perhaps the most important steps were felt to be “changing our image, rhetoric and discourse to adjust to the new political situation,”** while refocusing on the larger world systems which have produced toxic conflicts such as Iraq, Sudan, Colombia and the Congo. **In other words, taking steps toward a more holistic approach to peace and justice.** ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/3 "2003-03-14T11:23:23Z")
Peace through stepped up civil disobedience? Anybody else finding that to be funny? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/4 "2003-03-14T11:28:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Peace through stepped up civil disobedience? Anybody else finding that to be funny? \*\* Dunno, ask Gandhi. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/5 "2003-03-14T11:33:15Z")
Wasn’t Gandhi non-violent? Anyway, I don’t think you are ever going to be able to end British colonial rule in Texas. Good luck though. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/6 "2003-03-14T11:38:15Z")
Gandhi participated in non-violent civil disobedience. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/7 "2003-03-14T11:51:26Z")
If you are going to take a group of idealistic young Americans and sell them on the idea of non-violent civil disobedience, be sure to mention the non-violent part. I don’t see that important caveat in the article myself. Which is not surprising. Since the mid-1960s the peace movement in the US has been ambivalent about the whole non-violent issue. If I was a predicting person, I’d wager that there will be some violent clashes between the peace protesters and police fairly soon. They will probably have the 17 year olds throw stuff at the cops, them being minors. No, I’m not accepting wagers… ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/8 "2003-03-14T12:00:18Z")
My impression is that this article is written from the POV of the “far left” or “activist left,” rather than some average Democrat. Furthermore, it is written from the POV of how the war results will impact the peace movement. E.g., look at how it describes what most of us would consider the best case, that is, low casualties and reasonable transition policies: > [@](#): > > In such a scenario, especially if there is no major upsurge in domestic terrorism, the antiwar movement will find itself publicly discredited and politically marginalized; The widget business worries about the war’s impact on the sale of widgets; LeVine is writing for people in the peace movement business. ISTM that it’s a bad thing when any organization becomes so concerned about its own welfare that it overlooks the welfare of the public, who it purports to serve. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/9 "2003-03-14T12:15:31Z")
> [@](#): > > ISTM that it’s a bad thing when any organization becomes so concerned about its own welfare that it overlooks the welfare of the public, who it purports to serve. Yes, I agree with you completely. Right wing extremists _are_ running the country into the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/10 "2003-03-14T12:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*If you are going to take a group of idealistic young Americans and sell them on the idea of non-violent civil disobedience, be sure to mention the non-violent part. I don’t see that important caveat in the article myself. Which is not surprising. Since the mid-1960s the peace movement in the US has been ambivalent about the whole non-violent issue. > > If I was a predicting person, I’d wager that there will be some violent clashes between the peace protesters and police fairly soon. They will probably have the 17 year olds throw stuff at the cops, them being minors. No, I’m not accepting wagers… \*\* I dont know about the US but in Australia, the vast majority of protesters are non-violent. Of course, the 0.1% that do get violent is the only 5 second snippet of footage you see on the news. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/11 "2003-03-14T12:34:22Z")
**Beagle** sez: > [@](#): > > They will probably have the 17 year olds throw stuff at the cops, them being minors. Oh, those perfidious lefties! The cunning, crafty devils pursuing thier plan to undermine all that is good and right in America. First check the ID’s, get the ages right. Then issue ammunition, probably from a big barrell of “stuff”. With any luck, we can provoke the normally pacifisitic police into violating thier “civil rights”. Bwah-ha-ha-ha! Seriously, **Beagle** have you tried telling a 17-year-old what to do lately? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/12 "2003-03-14T13:02:22Z")
Um, Bush has already won the election, the Repubs hold both house of Congress and the Supreme Court is stacked with corrupt Repub hacks. The nightmare is already here, kid. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/13 "2003-03-14T13:53:02Z")
**Beagle** , FYI, the concept of civil disobedience is an old and venerable one that originated (AFAIK) in the writings of a nineteenth-century American, Henry David Thoreau. It was influential not only for Ghandi but also for Martin Luther King. The use of the term needs no qualification for anyone who recognizes its particular history. As to the OP, is this news to anyone? Of course a fast and low-casualty Iraq war will make Bush look vindicated. Centrist newspapers such as the _New York Times_ have been saying this for months. It is much more difficult to raise public awareness about the failures of a military occupation occuring thousands of miles away than it is towards a looming war. Especially given the kind of television media coverage that most Americans rely on for their news. For example, here on the Straight Dope, whenever the subject of post-war Afghanistan comes up, where nation-building efforts have been far from sufficient (though nothing like the scale of what will be required in Iraq is needed) you end up with pro-status-quo posters finding some article in which they “prove” that everything is just hunky dory because a new school was completed, or four flush toilets were installed yeseterday. The bigger picture is lost b/c it takes a really attentive media, and really consistent viewer attention to get the big picture. Levine is not far left, he’s stating the obvious. Speaking as a person on the left who also works within academia (as does Levine), I’m not “running scared” suddenly b/c the US may win easily, or, for that matter, just appear to win easily (with few casualities being reported, and other kinds of media sanitization). I take that as an obvious and perhaps even likely possibility. With all that, I hope few civilians and few American soldiers die (of course!). My concerns are about the longterm impact of any war, short or long, b/c I believe that no matter how short (and short will certainly be better), Bush has presented the US as an arrogant, unilateralist nation with an ignorant disdain for diplomacy, a bullying disregard for its allies, and a callous unconcern for what war means to people. To wit, its strategy for the longterm war on terrorism stinks. I believe people will _eventually_ see that no matter what happens, and that Americans will realize that US foreign policy must be built on solid international foundations. But a short war may indeed involve a political boost for Bush of some duration–long enough perhaps to cover the glaring flaws in his domestic policies. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/14 "2003-03-15T01:47:29Z")
_ **Which is not surprising. Since the mid-1960s the peace movement in the US has been ambivalent about the whole non-violent issue.** _ ~ Beagle Ah yes, nostalgia. Seventeen year old protesters. Rock throwing young hippies who took to the streets shouting “Hell no we won’t go, better red than dead, make love not war”. “Come on, listen to the new music, old people.” They said, “Give peace a chance. A new day is dawning and peace will rule the planet and all you need is love” So we listened. And out of the mouths of babes came babytalk, and social evolution skipped a smoke-tripping generation and here we are today. What songs do the protesters sing today… Well the **Code Pinkers** sing praises of Saddam’s liberation of Iraqi women. Scarce a day goes by that he doesn’t ask the Red Guard not to rape or beat Iraqi fem-chattel-kind unnecessarilly. And the **Treehugers** , bless them, sing a black song of protest because they know that during the last Gulf War the Allies made Saddam set fire to the Kuwait oil fields and then forced him to dump crude oil at the rate of some 200,000 barrels per day into the Persian Gulf creating an oil slick that covered over 240 square miles, the worst oil-related ecological disaster in history. On the other hand **the socialists, the aging communists, and the self-considered intellectuals of the unhappy far left** are still mad. They sing a long song of resentment at a century of success of american altruism, and their own failure to understand the nature of a free economy and of the coming triumph of unbrided human will . And, damn it to hell, now the USA must pay. But the **Ban The Bomb** crowd sing the queerest song of the lot. They left their pickets at the Five-mile Nuclear Plant in order to join Anti-war protests against the United States efforts to halt Saddam Hussain’s poliferation of nuclear weapons in the Middle East. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/15 "2003-03-15T03:32:41Z")
_“Well the Code Pinkers sing praises of Saddam’s liberation of Iraqi women.”_ Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/16 "2003-03-15T03:55:51Z")
**Milum** That was very interesting. Were you doing an impression of what P.J. O’Rourke would sound like if he had an overdose of phenobarbritol? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/17 "2003-03-15T04:57:23Z")
[Malcolm X]Don’t go around being non-violent unless you run into some non-violence[/Malcom X] Winning or losing isn’t the point. A bully who beats up a crippled kid is not validated because he wins. I’m not against the war because I think we’ll lose. Of course we won’t lose, it’s not a fair fight, that’s why it was selected. I’m against it because it’s fucking _wrong_, and winning will not make it right. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/18 "2003-03-15T05:11:15Z")
I can only think that any shred of a chance for rational debate on the Middle East was exhausted weeks ago --even on this board we are now reduced to taunting and posturing like tribal fighters caught in some neolithic time warp. This thread, and others in the last few days, are examples of just that. At this point what is going to happen is going to happen and what does happen is dependent entirely on the judgment of the President, whether you see his particular view as moral clarity or pig headed obstinacy. As James Longstreet said as the remnants of his corps drifted back from the Union center on the third day at Gettysburg, now is the time for good men to stand together. And so we must , not as unthinking flag waivers, not as the mindless devotees of what may be a foolish cause, but in order to try to make the best out of this adventure in foreign policy and its aftermath. ---
**Author:** ![auliya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@auliya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auliya)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/19 "2003-03-15T12:19:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > **On the other hand the socialists, the aging communists, and the self-considered intellectuals of the unhappy far left are still mad. They sing a long song of resentment at a century of success of american altruism, and their own failure to understand the nature of a free economy and of the coming triumph of unbrided human will . And, damn it to hell, now the USA must pay.** “a century of success of american altruism”?? You are joking, of course? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287/20 "2003-03-15T12:45:45Z")
Oh, please. All this anti-war talk comparing the movement to the Vietnam War protesters or some other historical opposition to violence. By the Summer of Love (1968) there had been US troops in Vietnam for _years_. I hope - since it’s obvious Bush is going to invade\* - he knocks this war out so fast that nobody has time to throw rocks. **Milum** I missed it the first time. I was just learning to talk when the work “hippie” actually meant something. I thought North Vietnam was bad because I grew up in Florida, which was obviously South Vietnam. By the time I had the geography worked out, the war was over. \*Seriously. No matter what we think, Bush is going. I don’t see any signs he’s not. I’m not that interested in Iraq threads right now for that reason. Personally, I’m just praying it does not turn into a civilian bloodbath, Saddam style. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-wins-the-lefts-nightmare-scenario/161287.md?page=2)