# Bush won fair and square...quit yer bitch'n **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184 "2003-04-07T23:32:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/101 "2003-04-08T18:26:21Z")
Any Supreme Court decision that states it shall not be used for setting future precedent is _very_ suspicious to me. If Rehnquist already knows that it’s a shoddy piece of law that won’t stand the test of time, then why make it? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/102 "2003-04-08T18:36:13Z")
Any Supreme Court decision that states it shall not be used for setting future precedent is _very_ suspicious to me. If Rehnquist already knows that it’s a shoddy piece of law that won’t stand the test of time, then why make it? ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/103 "2003-04-08T19:55:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by newcrasher \* > **The thing of it is, we have gotten over the whole debaucle. Every once in a while we discuss, with a little grin on our face, how you have not.** Wait a mo… who was it that started this thread? Why… I believe it was **YOU** , **newcrasher**! So, yeah, tell us some more how you’ve “gotten over it.” :rolleyes: The more you say, the less I believe you. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/104 "2003-04-08T20:01:30Z")
Lissa: > [@](#): > > The main difference I see between the Republican and Democratic parties is that Democrats seem more willing to criticize their own people, whereas Republicans seem to have a untied front, right-or-wrong-he’s-still-our-guy mentality. Really? Compare the (aborted by resignation) Nixon impeachment proceedings to the Clinton impeachment proceedings. I certainly think the opposite is true. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/105 "2003-04-08T20:21:21Z")
**cm** , Watergate was 30 years ago. I would hope you’d recognize some changes in the political landscape since then. **Lissa** does have a point - when there is little major difference in ideological structures among a party’s leaders, when they’ve reached those leadership positions largely _because_ they hold that ideology (or are at least willing to acquiesce to it), then yes, they will look like a united front. When there is true diversity of viewpoints in a party, and especially in a time when that party is out of power, there is a focus on how to get that power back - that leads to fault-finding and finger-pointing, and calls by the hot-tempered for excommunication of those they blame. You’d find the same things in the GOP 1992-94, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/106 "2003-04-08T20:46:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Jeebus, fella, read your own forking thread! The media consortium recount PROVED Gore would have won. The nakedness of the Supreme Court decision speaks for itself – I mean, they even added a bit saying that their decision couldn’t be used as precedent for future decisions, which if you weren’t a dittohead would tell you REAMS about their understanding of what they were doing. And no Pubbie has been able to seriously dispute the charges concerning the flawed election lists. > > Give it up, buddy, Dubya is the Thief in Chief. \*\* OK, ok, I have tried to say it plainly… There have to be rules for elections. You cannot go on counting and recounting forever. Perhaps this “media consortium” was right. But how was the denial of a recount such as the one the Medconsort. did illegal? Again, it goes back to the fact that you simply do not like the results. ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/107 "2003-04-08T21:29:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\*[This](http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030331-7659733.htm) indicates that Theresa LePore, the person who designed the Palm Beach ballot, was a Democrat in 2000, but **not prior to 1996 or after 2000**. > > In heavily partisan counties, it’s common for DINO’s and RINO’s to run under false colors because the alternative is to be unelectable. It’s would appear that Theresa LePore’s sympaties lie with the republicans, despite what her offical party affliation was during the 2000 election. > > Or, in other words, Dems didn’t “do this to themselves”. A Republican, pretending to be a Dem did this. Probably out of incompetence rather than malice. But it certainly wasn’t a case of self inflicted damage. \*\* Oh, she wasn’t the only “Democrat” involved in that. She didn’t do everything herself. Here’s the cite, but I’ll pull the relevant quote from Al himself out. > **[The Washington Post: Breaking News, World, US, DC News and Analysis](https://www.washingtonpost.com/?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A12623-2001Nov11¬Found=true)** > > Breaking news and analysis on politics, business, world national news, entertainment more. In-depth DC, Virginia, Maryland news coverage including traffic, weather, crime, education, restaurant reviews and more. Quote Gore, in a written statement, did not respond directly to the study. “As I said on Dec. 13th of last year, we are a nation of laws and the presidential election of 2000 is over,” he said. “And of course, right now our country faces a great challenge as we seek to successfully combat terrorism. I fully support President Bush’s efforts to achieve that goal.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![el\_mono](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ea666f/32.png) [@el\_mono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/el_mono)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/108 "2003-04-08T21:34:15Z")
Twixt the liberal and conservative The difference is wry While one asks “Why Not?” The other asks “Why?” Bush is president. Gore ain’t. End of story. While I adore spirited debate and informed opinion, I can’t stand worthless whining, which most of the “elected not selected” crowd seem to be doing. IMHO anyone who votes strictly along party lines without carefully examining the candidates and issues is an uninformed, careless voter and should have the decency to stay away from the polls. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/109 "2003-04-08T22:26:45Z")
ElvisL1ves: > [@](#): > > cm, Watergate was 30 years ago. I would hope you’d recognize some changes in the political landscape since then. Certainly there’s been some shift amongst the populace, but I don’t think the political class is of a radically different stripe. Despite the thirty-year time lag, the Nixon proceedings were generally cited as the model for how the Clinton proceedings should go forward. However, I couldn’t help but be struck by one interesting difference: During the Clinton proceedings, Republicans were constantly lambasted for being “partisan”, i.e., for attacking the president of the opposite party, while the president’s partisans in Congress backed him in lockstep fashion. The Nixon proceedings lacked that sort of partisanship…not on the part of the opposition party, but in that the president’s partisans in Congress abandoned defending him. But somehow, with Clinton, the expectations of what constituted non-partisan behavior were reversed. I think that Republicans these days show a much broader allowance for internal dissent and/or party-line-crossing than Democrats do. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/110 "2003-04-08T23:22:02Z")
> [@](#): > > I think that Republicans these days show a much broader allowance for internal dissent and/or party-line-crossing than Democrats do. Let’s ask senator Jeffords to comment on that. ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/111 "2003-04-08T23:30:51Z")
quote **I think that Republicans these days show a much broader allowance for internal dissent and/or party-line-crossing than Democrats do.** I think there is a lot of partisan bickering on both sides. The extremist from either side are the ones that don’t _ever_ change their minds. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/112 "2003-04-08T23:36:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*Let’s ask senator Jeffords to comment on that. \*\* In what way did the Republicans prevent Jeffords from taking non-party positions on many issues? He was a committee chairman. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/113 "2003-04-08T23:40:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Jeebus, fella, read your own forking thread! The media consortium recount PROVED Gore would have won. \*\* No, it proved the exact opposite. I’m sorry, but this is a simple issue of fact, easily supported by [cites](http://www.nytimes.com/pages/politics/recount/), this one from the NY Times: > [@](#): > > \*\*A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year’s presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward. > > Contrary to what many partisans of former Vice President Al Gore have charged, the United States Supreme Court did not award an election to Mr. Bush that otherwise would have been won by Mr. Gore. A close examination of the ballots found that Mr. Bush would have retained a slender margin over Mr. Gore if the Florida court’s order to recount more than 43,000 ballots had not been reversed by the United States Supreme Court. \*\*You may hold SCOTUS’s decision in contempt, but until I see a reliable cite to the contrary, the decision was ultimately irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/114 "2003-04-08T23:58:33Z")
My own opinion is that the matter should have been decided by the Constitution. Florida’s EC votes should have been declared null and void, and the matter sent to the House of Representatives for resolution. (Sorry, Stoid and nightsky, you don’t throw out Florida’s votes and go by the rest of the country’s votes, nor do you split them down the middle.) Also, no one has mentioned that the Green Party almost certainly pulled the votes from Gore that would have sent him to the White House, even with the hanging chads and the rest. Had Nader not run, there is no doubt in my mind that Gore would have captured New Hampshire and Florida, and this whole thread would be moot. A question I have for the Greens: Do you still think there is no difference between Bush and Gore? Furthermore, no one has mentioned the fact that a Tennessean could not capture one Southern state, with the possible exception of Florida. And, even if you grant Gore the best possible results of any recounts, that state split almost 50-50, no doubt due to all the Yankees that have moved down there for the clement weather. Hell, at least Mr. Peanut Head captured a few southern states when Reagan whipped his ass in the EC in 1980. ---
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/115 "2003-04-09T00:16:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*No, it proved the exact opposite. I’m sorry, but this is a simple issue of fact, easily supported by [cites](http://www.nytimes.com/pages/politics/recount/), this one from the NY Times: You may hold SCOTUS’s decision in contempt, but until I see a reliable cite to the contrary, the decision was ultimately irrelevant. \*\* **Bob Cos** , you have been duped. It’s not your fault. The media was actively trying to dupe you. You need to be able to read the article. For example, > [@](#): > > A close examination of the ballots found that Mr. Bush would have retained a slender margin over Mr. Gore if the Florida court’s order to recount more than 43,000 ballots had not been reversed by the United States Supreme Court. 43,000? there were 175,010 ballots that weren’t counted. What about the other 132,000? You need to read a bit further in the article > [@](#): > > But the consortium, looking at a broader group of rejected ballots than those covered in the court decisions, 175,010 in all, found that Mr. Gore might have won if the courts had ordered a full statewide recount of all the rejected ballots. The technical term for what the Times did is “burying the lead.” If you want to dig in more, take a look at the raw data yourself over here: [http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/fl/promiss.asp](http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/fl/promiss.asp) Or, just glance at a nice little graphic summary here: [http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/images/111201/ballot.jpg](http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/images/111201/ballot.jpg) Notice that every time you count the entire state, Gore received more votes ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/116 "2003-04-09T00:18:26Z")
[ul]🙂 [sup] **There was subsequent interplay on this subject but I thought the original posting was interesting. Minty Green posted a quote from another person and said the following. Then Syclla quoted someone and said the following. Unintentionally, the following was the result.** [/sup] > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Minty Green_ > **A blowjob now and then would do Dubya a world of good.** > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Syclla_ > **Mere speculation.** [/ul] 😃 [sup]Sorry for the hijack[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/117 "2003-04-09T00:23:30Z")
Hm. Shouldnt the electorial system be changed after this? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/118 "2003-04-09T00:39:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote \* > A question I have for the Greens: Do you still think there is no difference between Bush and Gore? [Nader Voters, still seen no difference?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=168820) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/119 "2003-04-09T00:50:25Z")
Thank you, minty. I missed that thread for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184/120 "2003-04-09T00:56:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*Hm. Shouldnt the electorial system be changed after this? \*\* No. It’s there for a reason. A damn good reason too. It’s so that a couple major population centers don’t vote for the whole country. I don’t get where you guys with the popular vote thing are coming from. That’s the law. It was set up that way for a purpose and it works. If you went with a strictly popular vote you would in effect discount the votes of millions of Americans that don’t live in NY or CA. And isn’t that your stance to start with, counting everyones vote and making everyones vote count? Seems like a double standard to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-won-fair-and-square-quit-yer-bitchn/167184.md?page=7)